| Description | Prof JAMIE GRIEVE interview at the Sir Duncan Rice Library, University of Aberdeen on Friday December 2, 2022. Interviewer Eric Crockart. Summary by Eric Crockart.
(0:00:00) JAMES HENDERSON KERR GRIEVE, born 3rd Nov 1953 in Motherwell, Lanarkshire. Explains why everyone calls him “Jamie”, except for some close family members and a few friends from England. Retired in October 2018. But explains he was the Senior Lecturer in Forensic Medicine at Aberdeen University since 1989. Originally retired in 2014, but came back to help his successor, who left in 2017, continued till two successors were found in 2018. But both recently gone elsewhere, so Jamie is back working again and does not know for how long. Working as a locum forensic pathologist, explains what this involves and does not involve. Explains importance of death certificates being issued. Family background, father an obstetrician and gynaecologist in Motherwell. Mother also a doctor, a venereologist. His older sister is a retired obstetrician, younger sister a retired schoolteacher. (0:04:37) Went to Knowetop primary school, classes of 55 children, most the children of steel workers. Explains what this meant for him as a child. He went on to Hamilton Academy, almost a tertiary education centre, explains. Tries to recall what he was interested in at school; played a little rugby, and singing was a big thing, explains; took part in Gilbert and Sullivan operas, singing also important later in life. (0:09:36) Tries to recall why he chose medicine as a career, natural progression having two doctors as parents, explains. Explains he studied medicine in Aberdeen rather than Glasgow because his big sister was studying medicine in Aberdeen and having a whale of a time! Tells story about being interviewed for studying medicine at Glasgow when he was 17, pressure put on him to study in Glasgow. Later was invited back to Glasgow three times. Explains attractions of Aberdeen for him. (0:15:00) Describes life as a medical undergraduate starting in Aberdeen in 1971. Absolutely brilliant, very quickly bonded as medical students. 90 students in first year class, 90 graduated six years later, but a different 90, explains. Medical school one of the great times of his life. Refers to the suicide of his fellow medical student, and later best man, about ten years ago; sadness and anger, explains. (0:19:14) Talks about first contact with patients, in anatomy the patient was actually dead. He did not love anatomy, explains. It was a discipline, like learning Latin and Greek. From later on in Third Year started to learn from patients on the wards, explains what this involved. Good times too. Clinicians then could be quite severe, explains. Recalls a gynaecology clinic when he was in Fifth or Sixth Year and was asked to examine a young woman, he got it wrong and was humiliated; but all part of the learning. Has fond memories of that clinician, but he would not be allowed to speak like that now in front of a patient or to a student. (0:24:13) Recalls inspiring lecturers in detail, though not by name. But not inspiring were the ones who were determined to show how much they knew. All of them though influenced how he himself later lectured. Had such a lot of fun, disciplined, although we managed to get up to all sorts of mischief, explains. (0:27:52) Graduated on 7th July 1977, specially requested by his Class for 7/7/77. Then explains about his pre-registration year, most of his Class employed in Aberdeen. His first job Ward 2 of Aberdeen Royal Infirmary, a general medical ward, explains. Original bosses were Dr Calum Macleod (formally Dr Malcolm "Calum" Macleod), a fantastic old gentleman. And Dr Neil Edward. Recounts how just two weeks before this interview he met for first time since he worked there the woman who was his Senior House Officer. After doing his six month medical job, his six month surgical job was in Ward 10, working for Mr David Blair and Mr Alan Davidson. Person he remembers most there is the late and much-missed Prof Graham Page, who was a Senior Registrar at the time, explains. Recounts working with Alan Davidson; shouted, but absolutely committed to his patients. Recalls how his father was looked after magnificently when terminally ill by Alan Davidson, explains in detail. Jamie was determined he was going to do Surgery. (0:33:09) Explains in detail why he ended up doing Pathology and Forensic Medicine instead. Started new pathology job in 1978; he was seduced by Pathology. Explains what it involves, found it fascinating. Talks about doing postmortems, compares it to doing Surgery, thinks surgeons may be a bit psychopathic! His wife, then Nicola Balch, was doing a couple of years in Pathology, explains. Her father was Dr Hubert Balch, a rheumatologist in Aberdeen. Talks about the Pathology Dept then, smaller than it is now. Teaching was a big issue for the then professor, Prof Alexander Logie Stalker. He was decades ahead of his time, explains in detail. Prof Stalker introduced teaching on closed circuit TV, explains in detail how this worked; findings from the Mortuary displayed to the cameras. (0:41:46) Recalls the tv technician, Frank, and what he did. Recalls getting up to mischief by pretending the sound had failed. Also recalls Sandy Stalker doing interactive teaching when Jamie Grieve was still a student in the mid-1970s, explains in detail about how this involved slides and back projection, and how the system worked. Jamie stayed in Pathology till he and Nicola had their first baby, explains she did not want to do Paediatric Pathology any more. She had to leave work in those days, because no maternity leave in 1982. Universities and the NHS under financial pressure at that time. Went from nine trainees to five trainees, no money or time off to go to courses. Recalls having to take leave to go on a Heart Course in London, and pay for it himself. So took a notion to join the Army, because they seemed to have lots of money. Also Army had an exchange programme with the American Army, explains about the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP). They were the world reference centre for anything odd or difficult. Jamie recounts going to see the Army at the Headquarters Mess in Millbank, next to the Tate Gallery (in London). Met by a Brigadier who was the Director of Army Pathology and a full Colonel who was the Professor of Military Pathology. Welcomed. Sent him to the Queen Elizabeth Military Hospital in Woolwich, truly engaging. (0:49:40) Decided to join the Army, explained how the pay scales were geared to parity with civilian life; he joined as a Captain, had to do his military training at Sandhurst, explains. Explains how he had begun to wonder if he was not missing the living patient; but was not given the chance, realised he had signed up for five years as an Army pathologist. Had a wonderful time, explains, was in the Army for seven years. (0:52:17) Explains his career in the Army in detail, and what he had to do. Was sent to Washington DC as the exchange officer, describes the AFIP, building in the grounds of the Walter Reed Army Medical Centre, no windows, explains this was to make it Atom Bomb-proof. Describes the building, and also how the pathology specialities worked. Jamie was sent to the Soft Tissue Pathology lab, describes the devastating sarcomas they could deal with. He worked with Franz Enzinger and Sharon Weiss, who wrote all there was to be written about soft tissue tumours. Enzinger probably the most famous pathologist in the world, extraordinary man, explains; yet he was humble. When Jamie came back to Aberdeen the professor of pathology then was Prof Eric Walker, who was hosting the Pathological Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Asked Jamie if any chance Franz Enzinger would come to Aberdeen; Jamie asked and Enzinger agreed, explains what happened. Explains that when he was living and working in America he and his wife had three children at that time, extraordinary two years. (0:58:29) Went to West Germany as a Major, which is what he was when he retired from the Army. Recalls time in 1987 when a hurricane struck Kent, where they then had a family home, and he was in Bethesda, and the problems they had over the mismanagement of their Kentish property. Some of his old colleagues in Aberdeen asked if he would come back and interview for his predecessor’s job, he said no, explains. Also time of his parents Fortieth wedding anniversary, explains his sisters planned a surprise party. So came back to UK to do interview in Aberdeen in 1988, explains what happened. (1:03:28) No other candidates. But warned his interviewers that the Army could keep him for up to a year, they were okay with that, went to London to speak to the Army Director of Pathology, explains what happened, ended up with the British Army of the Rhine (BAOR). Very difficult six months as the only pathologist with the BAOR, dealing with five hospitals, the only consultant. Visited Berlin, always interesting, describes the experience, including using the military train, all before the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. Loved his time in the Army, and benefitted from it, especially the times he was in court or a witness box, explains. Came back to Aberdeen to work on 1st March 1989. (1:09:15). Post was Senior Lecturer in Forensic Medicine, but as a Forensic Pathologist. His predecessor was another inspiring, but could be difficult, man Dr William T. Hendry. Bill Henry meticulous in everything he did, was a general practitioner to trade, not a pathologist, explains about him. Had grown in the role of Police Surgeon, explains. As aside, mentions Aberdeen University had a department of Medical Jurisprudence and Forensic Medicine as far back as the 1840s; Prof Ogston assumed that chair about 1846 or 1847, followed by Prof Matthew Hay, author of the Foresterhill campus, from later 19th Century into the 20th. Things deteriorated between the wars; after Hay was Robert Richards, senior lecturer but never a professor, kept things going before and during the Second World War. Then Bill Henry took over from him in the 1950s. Refers to the notorious late 1960s Maxwell Garvie murder case in Aberdeen, made Bill decide he should be full time. Refers to how the role was financed, originally by the university with small contribution from the Crown. But in 1980s Bill Henry and then Crown Agent John Dean and then Secretary of the University developed “the Aberdeen Model”, explains. Crown paid block grant to the university and the university would pay the people who delivered the service. Explains in detail how this worked in Aberdeen. (1:14:15) But when Jamie came back to Aberdeen he thought the block grant barely paid for one consultant, let alone all the rest of the staff. Drew this to the Crown Office’s attention. More than doubled the block grant for the next year. Mentions typist Margaret Duguid, absolute marvel, explains how they got even more money for her services. By the time Jamie retired they were at £1.04 million a year; explains that later the Scottish Government required these services to be contracted. So that was the figure of £1.04 million for 2016-17. Jamie explains he was planted within the Dept of Pathology as a unit. Mentions AURIS (Aberdeen University Research and Ιndustrial Services), they negotiated the contract, Jamie was employed by the university, most pathologists by that time had moved over to the NHS, as result of alterations in the 1980s. Reflects sadly that now the university is about to give up that contract with the Crown Office; there’s been forensic pathology or medicine in Aberdeen since a century before the NHS was founded. He likes the tradition, explains. He has been telling the Crown Office it is time for a new Aberdeen Model, where hopefully the NHS will take over this contract, though real concern about not many forensic pathologists to do this. (1:19:05) Explains what Forensic Medicine is, in detail. Explains what his duties are. Explains about Police Surgeons. Now call themselves Forensic Physicians. It’s a huge amount of work, as he says he has discovered in the two days since he went back! Explains about Forensic Pathologists, dealing with sudden and unexpected deaths. Explains about percentage of natural but unexpected deaths he dealt with. Importance of care, explains. (1:25:10) In Aberdeen would expect maybe ten actual murders a year, plus another 20 very suspicious-looking deaths. Here in the North-east just now, huge problem with drugs, so illicit drugs deaths. Accidents at work, fatal road accidents, and suicide. Explains everyone deserves the same level of care and attention after a death of a loved one, not just high profile deaths. Gives example of a mother losing her son from a drug-related death. Poses question, how can we deal with it so we don’t make it worse? Talks in detail about what he hopes people will remember him for in Aberdeen; care and understanding. Talks about American article which said the forensic pathologist is the physician to the bereaved. People sometimes just need to express their anger. (1:30:24) Talks in detail about what sort of work he did between 1989 and 2014. Carrying out postmortems, giving evidence in court, speaking with relatives, teaching. Recalls case in which young woman was murdered. A gruesome and difficult case. Talks about visiting the Natural History Museum in London with his family about time of the Millenium; five hundred year old child skeleton from Orkney, classic case of child abuse. Also went to the Millenium Dome, standing there and woman came to speak to him, mother of the murdered young woman from Aberdeen. Recounts what happened. Recaps on what he did over 30 years, went by in blink of an eye. Trying to make things better. (1:36:07). Explains he was asked to appear in court not as an expert witness, but as a professional witness, explains subtle distinction. Explains about his court work, fatal accident inquiries, public inquiries. Talks of Scottish judicial system; why it is critical to try to stop accidents at work. Talks about giving evidence in court, and being cross-examined. Talks of difficulties if you are not asked the right questions; framing your answer to introduce another element. Recalls a High Court judge who told him his reports were too long, and his retort. Certain amount of art in framing a report and framing the questions, explains. Talks of QCs (Queen’s Counsels), now KCs (King’s Counsels), sometimes being quite rude; his position was not to get angry with them. In the Army you get used to people shouting at you, and you just put up with it. (1:43:03) Explains he was the Forensic Pathologist, but did have one or two senior colleagues, who would provide him with the corroboration needed in Scots Law. Explains one way to annoy a Paediatric Pathologist is to say: “They’re all just little adults”. Explains he was always unco-operative with the Press and Media until he retired. Gives examples, including how he was once barracked outside the Sheriff Court by bystanders who thought the media interest in him meant he was a child molester; also the High Court. (1:47:32). Asked about the entry in his CV about the Genetics of Sudden Cardiac Arrest, explains in detail how Aberdeen was a pioneer in this field. People who were relatively young dying of no apparent cause. Recounts case of young man celebrating his 18th birthday, who died after being thrown into a pond in a restaurant. Spoke about another case of a young man who had died as a result of thrombotic problems. Spoke to his friend John Dean, the geneticist, and asked if there was any way to test for these so called Thrombophilias. It turned out there was a genetic test; diagnosis that the young man had Thrombophilia made big difference to the relatives, can test the rest of the family to see that they don’t have the same problem. Began to see that some of these young people with cardiac arrests had a family history of sudden cardiac deaths at a relatively young age. Went back to John Dean again and was told just to send him samples for testing; beginning of a very fruitful relationship. But never published this, just sent samples. Channelopathies; examples of young fit sportspeople running about who suddenly die on the field of play; or another group particularly when they go into cold water seem to suddenly spark an arrhythmia. (1:51:24) By early 1990s would have known that about ten per cent of these people would show a definable genetic abnormality. Could then test their relatives, explains benefits. Recalls being at the Scottish Parliament for event organised by a charity for families like that, and talking to MSPs about diagnostic test; talks about issue of how often it should be done, gives example. (1:55:04) Talks in detail about becoming a consultant to the authors of Crime fiction, and how this came about thanks to the Macaulay Institute, now the James Hutton Institute, and their outreach science programme. Involved Aberdeen author Stuart MacBride reading bits from his crime books, and a little panel of soil scientist Lorna Dawson, Jamie, and Robert Gordon University forensic scientist David Barclay, all offering criticism of what was written; explains this happened all over the country. Stuart was chairman of the Harrogate International Crime Writers Festival one year, wanted to repeat this but had arranged for others to do the readings. One of them was Ann Cleeves, who had written her Shetland novels. She put Jamie in her next book; explains they are now friends, did presentations together. Wonderful opportunity to tell the people of Shetland about his work, and why their relatives’ bodies had to leave the islands to come down to Aberdeen. Various other authors also involved, Lin Anderson, Claire MacLeary. (1:59:12) Explains how the Dept of Pathology developed and changed in his time there between 1989 and 2014. DNA was the fundamental feature over his time, explains. In 1984 Prof Alex Jeffreys from Leicester applied the uniqueness of DNA to a criminal case, explains. Also explains his experience, while still in the Army, of the Americans’ reluctance to use the DNA technology that Britain was trying to sell them; and how that subsequently changed. DNA became critical in all forms of identification; but other forms of identification still good, explains. Talks about sensitivity of DNA and how crime scene management had to be introduced as a result. Aberdeen probably the first police force in Scotland to introduce crime scene management; Aberdeen had many firsts, explains. Also mentions DNA in context of cardiac genetics. (ENDS 2:05:47)
|