| Description | Interview with Dr George Bernard Frazer recorded on 9 September 1988 by John Hargreaves.
Transcript of Interview :
H Bernard, you came to Aberdeen to the Faculty of Medicine as a student about 1957 I think it was.
F Yes, 1958.
H But you graduated in 1963 and then you held house posts and then a series of registrar posts from 1966 to 1969. Why did you choose to come to Aberdeen from Freetown, Sierra Leone for your Medical Studies?
F Actually it was my desire to come to Scotland to pursue Medicine because back in West Africa or let's say in perhaps the Third World and Scotland has a very high place in the minds of people regarding medicine as well as engineering and the medical schools in Scotland were highly thought of and Aberdeen and Glasgow did accept me in 1958 but I chose Aberdeen, no particular reason, but I thought perhaps it would be better for me to go to Aberdeen. But as I say it was because of the standard set by Scottish doctors who have worked abroad, especially in Sierra Leone that people feel Scotland is the place for medicine.
H Were there any Aberdeen graduates you'd met or known about before you came?
F None.
H And you completed your secondary schooling in Freetown?
F Yes.
H Had you travelled outside Sierra Leone before that time?
F No.
H I wonder if you can recall what your first impressions were of Aberdeen as a city and more particularly of Aberdeen University?
F I was very impressed when I arrived in Aberdeen: the city with it's golden sand. I was particularly impressed by the cleanliness of the city and the initial welcome was very good. People were very warm, they were very helpful and …
H Your talking of citizens of Aberdeen rather than the university?
F Citizens of Aberdeen, yes. I settled in very quickly.
H Where did you stay on first arriving?
F I stayed with a landlady. This had been arranged prior to my arrival by the British Council. I stayed in digs with a Mrs Gibson, Irvine Place, just off Great Western Road. She was an extremely nice person and did look after me very well indeed.
H Later when you married and your wife came to Aberdeen, did you have any difficulty in finding married accommodation?
F No we didn't, surprisingly no. I didn't find any difficulty at all. We moved from Irvine Place to Ashley Road with a Mrs Blair, she's still alive. We settled in there very well and when my third child was about to arrive we then moved into accommodation in Forest Avenue. Again I wouldn't say we encountered any particular difficulty in getting accommodation.
H To come to your impressions at that time of the University and the Medical School, was it a great change from secondary school in Freetown?
F Yes, it was a great change. I was among new people, new faces, had to make new friends and I knew, from the academic side that I was on my own and I could only receive guidelines or guidance from my teachers/lecturers and it was up to me to make the best of it. The responsibility was mine to apply myself and measure up to expectations. It was a great change from secondary school life to university life. Again I think I was lucky I made friends very quickly, very easily too. That in itself was very encouraging. My landlady helped a lot in introducing me to the way of life in Scotland, particularly in Aberdeen, and that helped. So again it didn't take too long for me to settle in both within the university as well as outside the university.
H And what now, as an experienced specialist, what now is your view of the education in the Medical School, its strengths and weaknesses? How do you recall the five years?
F Judging from the training I received and also now that I'm working elsewhere, I have no doubt in my mind that the training in Aberdeen is really very very good, first class I would put it at. I don't think it is any different from the training one would perhaps receive from perhaps any other medical school in the United Kingdom. When it was possible attention was drawn to certain conditions prevalent in the tropics and comparative studies were written to show that there is a difference in one particular disease pattern in the temperate countries as compared with tropical countries. Now the training we received by and large was for developed tropical and temperate countries and those who wanted specialised training going back to practice in the tropics had the option of taking courses in tropical medicine which were and still are available at Liverpool and London. But the training, there is no doubt the training was good thus preparing you for General Practice both in this country as well as outside this country. One good thing about Scottish universities, in particular Aberdeen, is that it really taught you to work hard, to apply common sense in what you do and that has helped tremendously.
H Because the medical syllabus has changed a good deal of late I wonder if it would be interesting if you went briefly through the course as it unfolded, commenting on the teachers and the aspects of the course which you remember most vividly at each stage?
F The pre-clinical year was interesting, involving a lot of hard work. When we did Anatomy and Physiology, Biochemistry, Statistics, I found them interesting. I found Human Anatomy most interesting, very exciting in parts as well. But the clinical year, yes, then you are beginning to feel that this is all what becoming a doctor is about. I think the programme at the time was quite good in that it prepared you stage by stage for your final year when you were faced with the big three parts in medicine General Medicine, Surgery, Obstetrics & Gynaecology, Paediatrics. The teachers, the lecturers I think were all very good. They took a personal interest and perhaps the size of the class made a difference.
H The size of the class was what?
F When we started off it was about 88 students in the second year and by the time we got to final year it was about 65. Now that in itself was a relatively small class and so I think we were able to get personal and individual attention when required. I took an interest in Obstetrics & Gynaecology and Surgery. Now the professor then of surgery was Professor George Smith who I should say again took an interest in me and also Professor Dugald Baird and Professor Iain MacGillivray in Obstetrics & Gynaecology. Now I think I did make it clear to them or show them in the discharge of my duties where I applied myself that I was interested in specialising in Obstetrics & Gynaecology. Professor Smith also thought that perhaps I would make a good surgeon. Now they helped tremendously and they were prepared to guide me, they were prepared to teach both theory as well as the practical side of medicine and all the other consultants, people like George Milne, Dr Fullerton, Johnny Wyper, Professor Klopper and Dr Sutherland. These were very good teachers in those days in the Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology of the University Medical School. I enjoyed the teaching. I enjoyed the work. It was hard work and I found when one knows you are prepared to work hard, prepared to apply common sense, they really do look after you. So the training I received I am quite satisfied was quite good.
H Would you like to enlarge a bit more on your memories of Sir Dugald Baird who was clearly an extremely distinguished obstetrician but also a very remarkable character and big figure in the history of the university? Have you any particular memories of Sir Dugald?
F Yes. I had the privilege of being his House Officer just before he retired. Of course prior to that he had lectured us, a figure we would treat with reverence.
H Was he a good lecturer in the lecture room?
F Yes he was a good lecturer and he had the knack of putting in the course what he wants to say for you to understand. As a doctor he was also quite good. He was a very good clinician. His clinical argument was one that we all had high regard for. As a technician in the operating theatre he was also very good and I learned a lot from him. I always remember the last two cases that he did before he retired, his last operating day. I assisted him in these two major cases and he turned round and said after we'd finished 'well George you will have to look after these patients, if there is any problem give me a ring at home'. Now the very night, one of them developed a complication, and this was about midnight, and I was scared stiff of phoning Sir Dugald to say that this had happened. It was a complication within my reach to manage so I did what was necessary and the following morning he phoned up and said 'how are the patients George' and I said well Mrs X had this particular complication and I did so and so and so on and he said 'well done, this shows you that it can happen to the best of us'. He had a very good sense of humour, extremely good sense of humour.
H He was a very modest man in some ways I think, wasn't he?
F Yes he was. For a man of his eminence he certainly was very modest and I thought he was very upright and just in his relationship with mankind and to his students.
H Were you as a student or later brought much into contact with the MRC Research Unit of which he was Director until his retirement?
F Not really, no. My contact was purely, you know … I don't think I did any particular work or had any particular contact with the unit as such except that I knew all those who were involved in the unit and we paid or little part by doing some research work that has to do with patients and they wanted us to co-operate, to provide them with information and figures. Yes, that I did but not actively involved as such, but we did have to furnish information about patients data as required.
H When Professor MacGillivray returned as head of department, this would be after your graduation?
F Yes, after my graduation.
H But you worked with him and then later as registrar and senior registrar?
F Yes.
H Is it possible to make any comparison between Sir Dugald and Professor MacGillivray as clinicians, as teachers?
F Yes, plenty of comparison really. They were both of them great teachers. Professor Ian MacGillivray didn't have the same sense of humour as Dugald Baird, certainly there was a difference there. But as teachers and clinicians they were both very good. I found Ian MacGillivray, he was a good disciplinarian too, just as Sir Dugald was. He was very helpful and as I say the only difference I can think of really that comes to mind straight away is that Ian MacGillivray never had the same sense of humour as Dugald Baird, but they were two great clinicians, two great professors.
H And they both presided over very distinguished departments?
F Yes, that's right.
H You mentioned Professor George Smith and I know you knew him well because I think he's Godfather to one of your children. Did you at any time consider deserting obstetrics for surgery?
F Not really. In fact the deciding factor was when I analysed Obstetrics and Gynaecology and surgery I said to myself, well if I did Obstetrics and Gynaecology, I will be doing some amount of surgery and it was on that strength that I decided finally to do Obstetrics and Gynaecology, knowing full well that I would be doing some amount of surgery, because Professor George Smith and others in his department did a lot to get me interested in general surgery. I'm thinking of people like Professor Charles Clark who's now down in London, Hugh Dudley and [Norman] Matheson (I can't remember his first name now) and also … - retired now. I cannot remember his name now but certainly Professor George Smith was again a very kind hearted person, a good teacher.
H What's the secret of being a great teacher in surgery? To be ignorant it sounds in a sense it's a much more, dare I say, technical discipline than obstetrics where there is obviously a great deal about the human person as a whole which has to be taken into account? To be ignorant it may seem that surgery is a relatively technical matter. What's the secret of being this, you obviously found George Smith a great teacher of surgery?
F Well he was able to put across what he has to say to you in clear, simple language for you to understand and he was able to explain satisfactorily to the best of one's understanding what he has in mind to say. He would always try to explain the basic principle. He was always a man who goes back to first principles in medicine and would then work from there upwards. In the operating theatre again he takes his time, when he moves and goes round to teach you takes his time and every step he would explain how, why and when satisfactorily. He was someone who was able to make you understand and appreciate what it's all about.
H Are there any other personalities in the medical school at the time you recall with particular affection, or for that matter, dare I say, with dislike or disappointment?
F Not that I would dislike as such, we had tense encounters I mentioned Norman Matheson, a great surgeon. He was very good as well, a good teacher, but very temperamental. One or two others, I cannot just recall their names now who didn't go down very well with most of the students, perhaps purely because of their method of approach to. They were impatient most of the time but now that we are qualified ourselves and we have responsibility for looking after patients we will make some excuse for them now. If you are hard pushed and many clinical problems you tend to lose control of yourself, become impatient and cannot tolerate slackness on the part of students or any colleagues. I think that was the reason. We students expected of our teachers patience at all times. Now this is not always possible but the majority of them were very, very good teachers. I remember in reading medicine, I again did my house job in medicine under the lead professor, Iain, what was his name?
H Was it Professor Fullerton?
F Not Fullerton, he was Professor of Pharmacology. I worked with Professor Fullerton in Medicine but my house job was under Professor MacGregor.
H Later when you became registrar did you have any responsibility for teaching students?
F Yes I did. As a registrar and also as a senior registrar.
H Did you hold a university appointment?
F I was a temporary senior registrar, yes. That was for a very short period because I left after nine months to return to Freetown, Sierra Leone.
H What was the extent of your teaching responsibility in that post?
F The bulk of it really was clinical teaching in the wards and tutorials and I also took part in postgraduate teaching as well at the university. But the bulk of it was usually clinical teaching in the ward.
H Would you have students with you on the ward for much of the time or was this limited to certain days of the week?
F Certain days of the week, yes.
H Did you notice any change in medical students from your own contemporaries because by the time you were doing that you'd moved twelve years on from the time of your admission? Had medical students changed at all do you think, apart from getting younger?
F No I don't think so. Do you mean from the time I graduated and was teaching?
H Yes.
F No I don't think they've changed very much at all. They look younger I suppose.
H Perhaps we could move now outside the wards and the classroom and go back to your life as a student. How much did you engage in extra mural activities in the student body at different stages in your career?
F Well not very much I must say. The only thing I took part in I remember was I played football for the medical faculty and also for the university. I think that was about all. I didn't get involved in any extra curricula activities, no.
H Would this be generally true of medical students at that time?
F Yes.
H Because looking back as we begin to explore the history of the university it seems there was a time, perhaps before your period, when the medical students were the leaders in student life. They were often the leading figures on the SRC and in university societies. They've always, I don't know if you would agree with this, they've always been a group rather apart, perhaps regarding themselves as a bit of an elite, whereas nowadays perhaps they have to concentrate on their medical studies. There was a time when they seemed to have a mission to run the affairs of the student body. How would you sight your student generation in relation to that?
F I think it was still so during my time. The student body was manned by and large by people from the medical faculty and they tend, I don't know whether they regarded themselves as elite or not, but they tend to get together and tend to regard, yes feel that they are a little bit perhaps … I wouldn't like to use the word superior but …
H I recognise the attitude
F They felt that there was a difference between they as medical students and the rest of the student body. That sort of feeling or attitude was still there by the time I was leaving. The other thing is that some of us had very little time for extra curricula activities because of the volume of work involved. If you really have to do very well then your time is not your own, you'd have hardly found time for all the things.
H Yes, well that seems to be the reasons of a change I was talking about, that the work seems to becoming more demanding than perhaps it once was. Were there many overseas students in your own medical year?
F In my class, yes. Half the class was.
H As much as that?
F Yes. We had people from West Africa, Sierra Leone. There were three of us from Sierra Leone in my year. We had from Guyana, Nigeria, Kenya, Kuwait, Australia, Europe as well, India, Pakistan. It was an international class.
H I hadn't realised that the proportion was as high as that.
F Yes it was quite substantial.
H Was this the period when we were still taking our quota of Norwegian students?
F Yes we had a few Norwegians in our year as well.
H Was there any tendency for overseas students in the year to fraternise among themselves or was there a good deal of mixing ?
F In my time there was a good deal of mixing, yes, quite a lot. If you were that way inclined then the British Council was there in those days where you meet other overseas students but in my year we did mix a lot, there's no question of that. Fraternise more with overseas or people from your own country now. We had very nice people in that year.
H Who do you recall as the characters of your year or as your own special friends?
F My namesake Robin Fraser was a great friend of mine. Sandy McIntosh who is now a consultant down in Newcastle and of course the closest of the lot was Dr Marion Hall. We did four house jobs together and specialised in Obstetrics and Gynaecology and we went on like that neck and neck right through student days until the state of senior registrar appointments. Of course I left to return home. We still keep in touch, we're still good friends. I do keep in touch with most of my colleagues here in Aberdeen. Derek Gray is another close friend of mine.
H And you're here of course this week for the 25th anniversary reunion?
F Yes.
H That was clearly a distinguished class. Is it your impression that most of the overseas students who at this time formed the higher proportion than at any other time of the student body in Aberdeen, was it your impression that they found Aberdeen a good place to be in general?
F Yes, that's my impression.
H Medics and others?
F Medics as well as non-medics, yes.
H And your own experience of their integrating into the university and the city would be true of most of those you knew?
F Yes.
H You mentioned the British Council which certainly played a very active part. Were you yourself sponsored by the British Council in any way?
F No I wasn't. I was sponsored by my government. When one's sponsored by your government you go through the British Council to guide you once you arrive here and to provide accommodation. They were there to sort out teething problems that one encounters when you are moving to a new place and trying to settle in.
H Did you personally find them very helpful or did you find that you didn't need their services too much?
F I didn't need their services too much. I didn't find that at all surprisingly. They found me, perhaps I was very lucky, they found me my first landlady and we got on extremely well together and after that moved on to another landlady who was also very nice so I didn't have cause to go back to the British Council to ask for any help at all in that regard. My friends, myself and my wife attended functions put up by the British Council.
H In Provost Ross's House?
F Yes. We used to have weekly, I think it was a Friday or Saturday night dance or get together, that sort of thing. It wasn't confined to the overseas students alone, it was open and we could bring Scottish friends.
H I remember those well and I think for some people Provost Ross's House was a very important facility.
F Very important, yes. Not only on the social side but it helped out very much in meeting and trying to solve students problems, especially housing and accommodation problems.
H I think in a way you've answered this already but I was going to ask whether you or any of your family did encounter any bad cases of prejudice or discrimination while you were in Aberdeen?
F No, I certainly would say no. I have no doubt in my mind, we never encountered any such thing. I think the question of prejudice is determined by the individual who feels that somebody's reaction statement is simply made because you happen to be of a different ethnic group or different colour, no. I had an open mind to many things and the reaction of certain people to certain things to me wasn't any different from the reaction I would expect my own kith and kin back home to react. I got on extremely well. My wife got on very well as well. She was a teacher at Summerhill Academy for some time and she never encountered any such problem. I never did. Within the University itself I got on very well. Outside I had a lot of friends who were not university students, I made friends readily.
H How did you meet your friends outside the university world?
F Through university friends I went to the pubs and hops and social functions so I was able to meet a lot of people. The Athol was a very common ground for most of us and the Kirkgate was also common ground. I did not experience it and a few of my other friends who have been here in Aberdeen during my period would agree with me. Others would have encountered but I think this is purely because of their attitude because I find generally speaking the people of Aberdeen are full of warmth and I think they're straightforward. If they don't like you to make it known to you straight. They either don't like you or don't agree with what you say or what you do. I got on very well so did many other of my colleagues from abroad during that period of time.
H So if your own children had chosen to study medicine, which they haven't, would you then have encouraged them to come to Aberdeen?
F Yes, certainly. They were all born here in Aberdeen and then of course the eldest one came first to complete her secondary education here and so did the second one. They came to Aberdeen and they've now migrated down to the south but certainly if it was medicine they had chosen or even engineering or whatever they had chosen Aberdeen would have still been my first choice and they would have accepted it because they do like Aberdeen very much.
H Is there anything else you would like to add Bernard Frazer?
F Not really, I think we've covered everything really.
H Thank you very much and I hope you enjoy your 25th anniversary reunion.
End of interview
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