| Administrative History | Margaret C. Cooke was a former Aberdeen University student |
| Description | Interview with Margaret Anderson Cooke (nee Christie),recorded on 26 September 1986 by Colin McLaren.
Transcript of Interview :
McL Mrs Cooke why did you come to the University to begin with?
C Because I wanted to further my education and by the time I finished school there was a hiatus, the war was just on its last lap. Because my family had moved home to the North East of Scotland, and then moved back again in 1944 to London, they didn't quite know what I was supposed to be doing. And London University was really my first choice, but my Highers and my certificate of fitness didn't take me into London. So the family tradition had to be upheld and I was whisked back to Aberdeen.
McL Had your parents been graduates of the University?
C Not my mother and father, but all my father's brothers, apart from one, and a sister, that was, oh that was five boys and one girl out of a family of seven. That really is the family connection.
McL Had you thought in advance before you came what courses you would follow or was that decided when you arrived here?
C I had had some idea that it would have to be on the Arts side. I had no real future plans as to a career. I think in a transitional period like we were, it wasn't easy to decide quite what you wanted to do. A lot of girls thought along the lines, "oh, we could join the forces", because they were still recruiting girls at that particular point, and I think my family would rather I'd got a good grounding for a future career if any. And that's why the University was my primary objective at that time.
McL Can you recall your first day?
C Yes, because I'd to go down to Marischal to get some things sorted out and I had a cousin working in the Admin Office down there and things were rather confusing. So the first person I went to see was this cousin, who sorted it out much better than anybody else had sorted it out so far. So I went to see him, and I had already got digs in Aberdeen … and the family being up … and I got digs in Allenvale Road. And of course, after my mother dumped me, that was me, on your own.
McL How easy did you find it to settle?
C Oh, I had absolutely no problems at all.
McL Do you think this was partly you, or was it partly the University?
C Probably a mixture of both is probably the diplomatic answer. I knew Aberdeen. Because the family had moved back to the Home Counties as it was. I mean, I had experience of working in London. All be it briefly, at the time of doodle bugs. So coming to Aberdeen was really a step back in time and then there was no danger of doodle bugs by the time I got there. There was no hassle for transport, we weren't rushing to get a tube or commuting anywhere. And there was just no problem to me.
McL What work have you been doing in London?
C I've been a bookbinder for the Red Cross.
McL Yes.
C Which is a long involved story which doesn't really connect with Aberdeen University, but it was a voluntary job. Do you want to hear the rest of it Mr McLaren?
McL Briefly I think, if it doesn't connect with the University you can summarise it.
C It doesn't connect with the University well. We moved down because my father though it was time to get his family together from Turriff. And, what we were going to do with the eldest daughter? who wasn't going to be called up and we spotted this advert for 'young ladies to bind books for the Red Cross'. The Red Cross in St John's Hospital Library which was in King …, in the Favour Building in King William IV Street. So I went along there, had a wonderful time because I was taught by a lady who had been at the Central School of Arts and Crafts, and she was a first class bookbinder. It was voluntary work but it was fantastic, you know, we met all sorts of different people who were taken down to the Red Cross and St John Headquarters, we met Lady Louis and you know all top brass that were involved and it was a wonderful thing to learn
McL To what extend do you think that experience had made you more mature than your peers at the University?
C I can't really say. The only reason, I can't say that it was maturity, I was quite happy to stay at home. I had the home background while I was doing all these things in London. I always went home at night.
McL How would describe your year as you remember it?
C The first year. Interesting I met my future husband which is always a good thing for a girl. I participated in a lot of things. There was a lot of sport going on. I was a country dancer and I went fencing. I wasn't much on the socialising the hops didn't really appeal to me.
McL Why was that?
C I don't know. If you're a sporty outdoor type your not usually quite so good at socialising. Least that was me!
McL Who among your teachers stands out in your memory from that period?
C Well there are several that are you now really outstanding. I would say Prof. Roe for one who was French. Dear Prof. Matthew who taught us Botany. The man who did philosophy, MacKinnon.
McL Why would you say these people stood out in your mind?
C I don't know I felt I could relate to them.
McL Can you enlarge on that?
C Well, they were always very friendly. They encouraged you and I just remembered another lady Dr Hampson who was in Economic History, and the Prof. of Economics as well [Henry Hamilton]. They were very open, friendly people, as far as I can remember and I know it was a long time ago.
McL So, you would not say that their relationship with students was one of awe or distance?
C No. They were very approachable.
McL Did they entertain you in their houses?
C No. Not myself personally, I don't know about other students but I was never entertained in their houses.
McL So, in what way did this openness manifest itself?
C Just that if you had any problems with work you could go along and speak to them.
McL Would you have gone to them rather than to your friends?. Was Mrs Clarke in post then as an advisor to women students?
C She was just coming in and, of course, I've got a family connection with Mrs Clarke through my mother. Not a close connection it wasn't a relationship connection but it was related through Dunfermline College of PE because they had both been there. And I think Mrs Clark was 2 or 3 years junior to my mother. But they knew of each other. I felt the problems I had were largely work problems, that she didn't really concern me.
McL Were these problems of too much work or just finding the work difficult?
C Not so much difficult but, if I didn't understand anything I was quite prepared to go and ask to find out and make sure I got the right answers.
McL The teachers you mentioned MacKinnon and Henry Hamilton, presumably, in Economic History. How do they strike you as teachers as men making their subject accessible?
C I thought they were very good. What I learned from them I remembered. And even French, which wasn't my most brilliant subject the Prof. made it very interesting for me.
McL You lodged, I think you said Allenvale Road?
C That was the first year.
McL Was that a student quarter or …?
C No, it was just lodgings.
McL So, did you feel slightly cut off from the student community?
C Not really. I had a lot of friends in Aberdeen. Well because of the family connections and everything else, and I was never particularly, well I have said I am not particularly sociable at the best of times. I'm a sporting character. And I had my sports friends. And there were other things to do and I've always had wide range of interests.
McL How important was sport to the University?
C I thought it was very important because we had some stars at the particular time.
McL Who were they?
C Well there was Arthur Spark and Audrey Morrison and I don't know if she's here tonight, but she was one of the stars and Quita Shivas was another one.
McL In which…
C Quita was a runner she was in the '48 Olympics. Audrey Morrison I think she played badminton I can't remember. Arthur was a rugby man.
McL How important do you think the did the University establishment the University authority are used thought as part of the student way of life?
C I thought they were quite interested. That I can't remember an awful lot about their attitudes. I was more concerned about what I was getting out of it as a person. And of course we had the Pavilion, and we had the swimming pool and we'd go down there. I'm going on further in time this just wasn't the first year. Go down the Drain and we'd Colonel Brocks.
McL What's the Drain?
C Down at the Anatomy Department. In Marischal.
McL Why is it called the Drain?
C I haven't a clue. Perhaps it because it's the Anatomy Department. I can't remember.
McL Were you in anyway financially supported either by your parents or did you have a grant?
C There were no grants. Presumably my father had sufficient to support me.
McL Did he make you an allowance of some sort?
C Yes he did.
McL Can I ask you how easy or difficult or just how you managed to apportion your money. Did you find it hard to survive?
C No, I didn't find it hard to survive I was given so much at the beginning of the term and that was it. And it was banked and then, coming back to myself and the family again, we were always taught how to look after our money from a very early age. It wasn't a completely new scene to me to have to handle my own cash. The cheque book was new. And the fact that it was there I was supposed to keep strict account of what I was doing.
McL What did it go on?
C What did it go on? Lunches, tram fares, books, not necessarily college books because I'm a veracious reader anyway. If I had any spare cash at the end of the week it was always on Penguins or something to read as well.
McL I suppose your generation would have been one of the first to benefit from the paper back revolution and the availability of cheaper books, but presumably there were still war time shortages?
C There were restrictions on books. I think the Penguin had gone up from 6 pence to a shilling.
McL Did you find the impact of war and the aftermath of war impinging very much on your life?
C Well, the fact that the ex-servicemen came home. Which was absolutely fantastic. There we were young 18 year old girls, and these great heroes had come back they were all in their twenties they were old, they were mature, and I think to a lot of the girls this was something quite wonderful.
McL But did that not create some sort of gulf between … an age gap as much as anything else?
C I don't think so. They were quite happy to have a captive audience of young ladies. The boys, our contemporary boys were not so interesting to us. Somehow these and they talked about what they'd done in so far as they wanted to talk about what they had done.
McL Was this in anyway divisive the fact there was a generation of boys who haven't seen service and a generation of young men who had seen service. Do you think this caused any feeling … or any attempt for people to remain within their own groups?
C Can't really remember, because I don't remember an awful lot about the younger men. There were one or two who I was at school with, who appeared now and again, if they were medical people I hardly ever saw them. A lot of the arts people I knew were ex-service, and I like to come in with the fact that we had the influx of the Americans. Have you heard about the American scene in 1945?
McL Tell me about it.
C Well, the American army who had got graduates amongst them, apparently - this is how I remember it. They had been told that for a period of 3 months if they had been University students or graduates in America they would be allowed to pick a University in the UK or Europe. And just mixed with the students attending classes there was nothing in it for them, but it was just to give them the experience of University life in this country. And Aberdeen had a very fair influx of Americans. They were all very nice, I expect they were a hand picked, you know sort of nice people. That sounds awfully snobbish in this day and age but they were genuinely decent and interesting. And we had a lovely time with them, in fact I brought a one of the leaflets they gave me, I don't know if that will be any use to you? They gave us leaflets. I've only got the one I've got another one at home but goodness knows where it is.
McL Can you tell me what the impact of these Americans was in so far they were representatives of another culture. Presumably you must have travelled, but not to America so it was very new to you. How did you respond to it? How did your friends respond to it?
C Well, I can't remember how my friends responded to it. But, I've always loved to travel I haven't travelled all that far even in this lifetime but, I like meeting other people from different areas and finding out what they do and why they're there and one of the Americans was Welsh, you know Welsh was the home language. And he was a very interesting character. One came from Harvard. One came from, I just can't remember his name, he's the one who gave me these leaflets for American forces in the UK. So some of these days, well I've brought one with me. And if you'd like to see it I'll let you have a look at it.
McL Were they in anyway an object of jealousy or envy amongst the home grown lads?
C Couldn't tell you. I mean I wasn't sufficiently interested in any of the men as 'boyfriends'. They were all just people that were interesting to talk to or who had something in common with.
McL You said that you'd met in your very first year you'd met you ultimately married. Was this very common amongst students to have a steady relationship right through their student period?
C Well, you see I didn't meet and marry a student. I married a navel officer. Who was a straight pick up in the Cally. We had gone into the Cally for collecting in the gala week. And they had said "yes but, behave yourself" and all the rest of it. And I was picked up by this gentleman. In fact his friend picked up my friend and I didn't want to be picked up. And I lost her, and they kindly said "look I think you better sit down and have a drink" and I said, "yes but I don't drink!", 18 year olds didn't, accept at holiday times and on family aegis. So I met and married a navel officer. So I was never really involved with student pairings or for the want of another expression.
McL So when you say you didn't drink, was there much drinking amongst the male part of the student bodies?
C I think there was because they used to forgather in the Kirkgate.
McL Would this have been amongst the older ex-servicemen or the younger boys as well?
C I think the ex-servicemen. I was in there once or twice but it just didn't appeal to me it wasn't my scene. I just never knew what they did.
McL What did you do in the University vacations?
C Well. If I didn't go home to London I used to go up visiting relatives on Deeside, I used to pack my bike and whisk myself away up there. And of course I got engaged, where did I get engaged now? I meet Cookie in '46 so I must of got engaged in '47. I got married in '47. And then after that you see, after my second year I was a married woman and I was following the flag.
McL How common was it for married woman to marry in their courses? Whether within the student body or, as in your case beyond. It must have been fairly rare?
C Fairly rare. None of my contemporaries did it.
McL Was there any reaction from the teaching staff?
C Only one.
McL Who was that?
C Prof. Knight. I went to ask him for a book one day, and he said "your name?" I said, "My name is Margaret Cooke" and he said, "Miss Cooke" and I said "Oh no I'm a Mrs". And he was rather a small gentleman he looked all the way up to my head and he said, "Your far to young to get married" and I said, "Well that's my affair". And that was the end of that conversation.
McL Looking back, since he was after all by then in the Chair of Psychology, does this surprise you? Would this have typified his attitude do you think? Or was it just…..
C Maybe it was just off the cuff. He probably never come across a young married student.
McL He not somebody who taught you?
C Yes he was. Yes.
McL How do you find him as a teacher?
C Interesting. His wife was much more interesting, Margaret. She was much more interesting lady.
McL Had see by then acquired her reputation she subsequently got for radical humanism?
C No she hadn't. She hadn't written the book, at that point and then the time I met him, I was trying to graduate, to decided where I was going to live with my husband. Were we going to go round all the navel air stations. And there was a lot of pressure on me so, I never paid a lot of attention to that but the object of the exercise was to graduate and then live a normal married life.
McL When you forgathered with your friends out of University classrooms. To what extend were you concerned about the reconstruction of the country after the war? Was this a topic which bulked large in your conversations or discussions?
C No I don't think so, I can't really remember, to be honest. I think we were all so relieved that the war was over. It was a great feeling of euphoria, that you weren't going to be bombed. Reconstruction in '45, '46 was something that was being done outwith our sphere. We had a general election in 1945 and it was the Labour landslide and we knew all this was going on, but somehow we felt insulated. And I think like all young people it was a time to enjoy yourselves - after 6 years of restriction.
McL Well the restrictions did of course continue didn't they?
C Oh yes. The austerity continued to 1951. But it didn't seem to touch you somehow. As long as you had adequate to eat and you did, basically, have enough to eat.
McL Do you think this was possibly being in this part of Scotland that you were to some extent protected from the …?
C Cushioned. Definitely cushioned I mean we didn't suffer what they suffered in London or any of the big cities. And then I was a country girl from Turriff and we hadn't really suffered.
McL You subsequently followed the fleet, presumably, with your husband so you weren't as affected perhaps as other students by the problem of getting a job as such?
C No
McL But from your recollection were their difficulties that other students suffered?
C I can't really remember. The majority of girls in my year went like lemmings into teaching. And I'd always said I would never teach and subsequently I've landed up in that profession. At the end, but I did dabble in teaching for a little bit I was on certificating work to Northern Ireland, but then my husband was killed and I had a son to bring up and there were all sorts of complications which don't really concern this area.
McL I think I would like to ask you as a final question. To what extent do you feel that the education that you achieved at Aberdeen and the University experience at Aberdeen. To what extent and what contribution did it make to your ability to cope with life after University?
C Quite a lot, I think, but there was a point in time when I felt the University was stultifying.
McL Why was that?
C I don't know. It sort of by the time I got to my third year and being married, I felt that I'd taken a step ahead of my contemporaries. And wanted to do something different.
McL Did your contemporaries look at you in the same way, as someone who'd got married and who had suddenly become part of a different social group or social type?
C I think in a way they did. Because I do remember I went to sing in the St Matthew Passion in the choir and I don't know if it appeared in Gaudie but somebody said in the [?] choir was so and so, and so and - a married lady. There seemed to be that sort of gap.
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