| Administrative History | Adam Gordon Skinner was a former Aberdeen University student He joined the teaching profession in 1934 and in 1945 he was appointed HMI of Schools and was a prime mover in the formation of the Scottish Council for Administrative Education in 1961. He was awarded his OBE in 1965 |
| Description | Interview with Mr Adam Gordon Skinner, recorded on 11 July 1986 by Mrs Elizabeth Olson
Transcript of Interview :
O Where were you born Mr Skinner?
S Alford, farmed in Alford, Aberdeenshire.
O Where did you go to school?
S Monquitter Public School, Cuminestown; Culsalmond Public School, Insch; and Huntly Gordon Schools.
O Was it always your intention to go to university?
S It was.
O Had you any particular field of study in mind when you were young?
S I had in mind to study mathematics.
O Did you sit the Bursary Comp?
S I did.
O Was that what everybody did?
S Yes.
O Were you successful?
S I was placed in the first division in my fifth year, and I think I was sixteenth on the second occasion.
O So that would have given you a bit of a start?
S Yes it did. I had a bursary.
O What were you going to do with your maths degree? Had you thought of that at that stage?
S Probably teaching because my uncle was headmaster of Strichen School and I had a cousin who was also a teacher.
O So you thought you would enjoy that sort of life?
S Yes.
O In your first term you took Maths and English?
S And Zoology in the summer. It was a one-term subject then.
O For your mathematics, was that a two-term course or was it a three-term?
S Three-term. Both English and Mathematics were three-term courses.
O And the Professor of Mathematics was Hector MacDonald?
S Yes.
O What do you remember about him?
S I remember that he was a rather withdrawn figure, a distant figure. Goodwilly or something like that, one of the boys who took us for tutorials was easier to approach.
O Were there many people in the Maths class in first year?
S I should say quite a number.
O Sort of 50 or 100? 50 sort of?
S Yes, probably.
O Was it a compulsory subject or did people go because they liked it?
S It wasn't compulsory as far as I'm aware but I had very little guidance from school or from anybody I knew.
O You just went up and did what you thought was the thing to do?
S Yes. I did feel that the students nowadays have very much more help in career guidance.
O Then for English you would have had Professor Jack?
S Yes.
O Do you remember him?
S Yes I remember Professor Adolphus Jack. His main interest was in the Chaucerian period. In fact I'm doubtful if we'd got much further than the 17th century in the course of the year.
O That was a big class I believe?
S It was a big class and he did not approve of students, except those going in for Honours, taking English in their first year.
O Would you have preferred to have taken it later or did you find that you coped alright at the time?
S I coped.
O Did you enjoy it?
S It gave me a good background but I haven't read Chaucer since.
O That's a thought isn't it.
S Yes
O Why did you take English as part of a general MA degree?
S I'm not quite sure if it wasn't compulsory.
O I think it probably would have been. If you'd taken a straight Honours in Mathematics would you have had to take many other subjects as well?
S I'm not quite sure.
O Then you took Zoology under J Arthur Thomson?
S Yes. He was an excellent lecturer.
O You enjoyed his classes?
S Yes.
O I believe they were big as well because he was popular?
S Yes, very big numbers. It was a summer term course so we packed it in so it meant that by the end of the first year I had taken three subjects.
O Did you do practical parts with practical classes?
S Yes.
O What did that involve?
S A certain amount of vivisection but I'm afraid I have relatively little …
O Did he take you out at all?
S No.
O Not the first year classes, some people talk of that. Do you remember Professor Thomson himself?
S Not as an individual but as a good lecturer.
O Professor Lockhart I think said that he posted the exam results on glass cases and that was a bit of an ordeal when you had to go and read the results, but that might have been earlier?
S No, that was not uncommon but whether it was only for Zoology I couldn't say.
O I think he said he laid them out on the cases in the Natural History museum. This is what Lockhart remembered.
S There used to be notice boards outside what was Butchart's office.
O That would have been in Marischal Quad would it?
S In Marischal College. You see Zoology was in Marischal College.
O Where was Maths?
S Maths and English were in King's. Maths in what was then Old King's, off the quadrangle on the right-hand side just as you went in. English was in what was then called New College.
O Across the grass from the Chapel?
S Yes. There was a building between the Chapel and New College.
O On the end of the grass there's the Elphinstone Hall.
S That was before my day. It might have been one of the Divinity Manses.
O I see what you mean. So it wasn't just grass, there would have been a building?
S There was definitely a building there.
O I didn't know that at all. You don't know what it was used for?
S No, but I know what the English class area was used for, it was a brewery.
O Had it been recently changed to English courses, about 1905 I think, it was established as English?
S Remember I was in the 1920s.
O Would it have been the great big lecture theatre that's there at the present day?
S Yes, a very big class with the men at the front and the ladies at the back.
O How unchivalrous. Why was that? Was it just the tradition?
S Yes.
O Were the women accepted as members of the class? Did you make friends with them?
S I can't remember any who was there in my time. I'm afraid I didn't have very much knowledge [of them].
O You weren't really interested in that, you were more interested in your studies I suppose at that stage?
S Yes.
O In 1923 to 24 you began what looks a very heavy diet. It seems you took Logic, Political Economy, Economic History, Economic Geography and Spanish. Was that all in one year?
S The Spanish was a preparatory class because it was new language, so that's why Spanish is there. Economics was under MacFarlane and Logic under Bourtie, William Leslie Davidson. He was the only professor who had us to his house and took a personal interest. He lived with his sister, he'd been previously a minister in Bourtie, near Inverurie and that's why he was always known as Bourtie. He was the only professor or member of staff who actually had students to his house in my experience.
O Did he take an interest in what you were doing or was it just an occasion that the students came?
S Just an occasion.
O By that stage you'd decided not to go on with mathematics?
S Yes. I was switching.
O Because you thought it was better for professional purposes?
S Yes.
O So nobody particularly advised you to do that, it was just what you saw as being a sensible thing to do?
S I just did it.
O Did lots of people decide to do B.Com? Was it a popular degree?
S It was not a big class. For example the Spanish class consisted originally I think of five students.
O And they were all doing B.Com. were they?
S I couldn't say. I know that there was one lady C.D. [Sadie?] Davidson was delighted when she left.
O Did you enjoy William Leslie Davidson's Logic classes? Did you find them interesting, do you remember or don't you remember much about it?
S All I know is that one of my colleagues was using his father's notes.
O So it was an established course?
S Very much so.
O Then you did Political Economy under Professor Gray?
S Yes. He was brilliant, quite friendly but obviously a very good man.
O Was that a big class?
S Yes.
O Was it for Arts and B.Com?
S Yes, and also we had the CA, what we called apprentices. They had to take three classes, Mercantile Law, Accounting and Economics, just for background.
O What's Political Economy?
S Economics in modern terms.
O Which is really just … tell me more about that?
S Economics is the most important subject in the country after all you can think back to Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations and that gives you an idea of what economics is - the wealth of nations. How the country is organised.
O Would it have been taken from a historical point of view or descriptive of what was going on at the time?
S It's always changing. It's one of the subjects which has developed to the greatest extent as far as I know, possibly because I had something to say.
O Did you find that particularly interesting when you struck it at university?
S I did, partly because of Alexander Gray ?
O You say he was friendly, what do you mean by that?
S His attitude to his students was that he regarded them as interested in his subject whereas some of the others regarded the students as recipients of information.
O I wondered if he took an interest in what you were going to do next?
S No.
O Because in the comments on him it says he was interested in Civil Service work.
S Yes, because he'd been in the Civil Service. He was either number one or number two. [in the Civil Service entry competition] I know the other person, the person who was in the other place sent a note of congratulations before the result came out. This man said you're the only person who could have beaten me. But then he'd been in the Civil Service.
O And then he'd moved into university life after that?
S I met him many years later, he came into the university club when I was being taken there for lunch.
O And then you did Economic History with Mr Arthur Birnie?
S Yes. He was rather a dry stick.
O Were there lots of people in that class?
S No, the numbers were not large.
O Was this purely for B.Com.
S Yes, purely for B.Com.
O Were there any women in that?
S Don't ask me.
O You also took Economic Geography which I can't find described in what I've been ?
S MacFarlane.
O Was it a special course for the B.Com student?
S Yes it was. It couldn't have been a very big class because the first prize is in the other room.
O I wouldn't say that. That was nice.
S Just as first prize for Spanish is there.
O What do you remember about Mr MacFarlane from Economic Geography? Was he a good lecturer?
S Not outstanding but quite attractive, quite interesting.
O No mannerisms or nothing that makes you remember that?
S No.
O Then you took Spanish as you mentioned taught by a chap called Mr Charles Davidson?
S Yes, CD.
O He is said to have been a good teacher?
S He was.
O Why did you take Spanish?
S Because I had to take a language for B.Com.
O Why not French or something that you'd taken at school? Did you want to broaden your sphere?
S I wanted to broaden my knowledge and I decided to take Spanish with a commercial bias in some ways but I will admit that some of CD's stories had no commercial bias. They were better for men than for ladies.
O According to the fusion book he sent you out able to talk Spanish rather than having the literary background you would have got from French?
S Yes.
O And this was a preparatory class in the first instance?
S You took a preparatory class and then a degree class in the second year.
O So it took a whole year for the preparatory work taking you up to sort of higher standard?
S Yes, I think that was the objective.
O So that you could make something of it after that. Then in 1924-25 you took a whole batch of studies, Accounting, Business Methods, Organisation of Industry and Commerce, Spanish and Economic Statistics?
S Yes.
O That must have been special courses for the B.Com?
S Yes.
O Who taught them?
S Who taught Statistics, I'm afraid I can't tell you.
O Was it a big class again? Did everybody have to take it?
S Yes it was compulsory. Organisation of Industry and Commerce was really equivalent to second year Economics taught by Professor Andrew Gray himself.
O What did he teach?
S Economics.
O In the first year? Economic History?
S No. Economics.
O That's something different?
S No.
O I get confused between Economic History, Economic Geography and Economics.
S Economics is the basic theoretical study of how the world works. Anything from division of labour to monetary theory and so on.
O And that was a Mr Gray?
S Yes. Alexander Gray.
O Also known as Political Economy?
S That's right. Sorry, I was wrong there because in other parts now they use the title Economics and I was accustomed to using that term for what in Aberdeen at that time would have been called Political Economy.
O So that was Alexander Gray again. What about Business Methods? Perhaps it's all the same thing really?
S I think it's Accounting and Business Methods and it was taken by John Reid who was a chartered accountant in Aberdeen and who came in to give us an introduction to accounting.
O You didn't seem to take anything in the Law field?
S Yes. Mercantile Law. Now who took Mercantile Law?
O I can find that out. Was it in with the law students or was it a special course for you?
S It was also for Accountancy students.
O So that you would have been doing the same courses sometime?
S Yes. Whether it was the Law students I'm very doubtful.
O But the Accountancy ones would have had more in common with you?
S Yes.
O Would you have been better to take a CA course or was this more fun?
S With hindsight I would have been better to have taken my MA and then go straight into a CA apprenticeship but at that time CA apprentices were paid if anything a pittance and I felt it was better to take a degree course. I packed the MA and B.Com into four years which it should really have been a five year course.
O And that would have presumably meant that it was very heavy work for you to be able to do it in that time?
S Yes.
O At the time did you enjoy the B.Com course?
S I did.
O But nobody said to you where it would lead, you just hoped that you'd get a job in commerce?
S Yes.
O I've put here did you enjoy your B.Com degree and I wondered if any of the teachers that you had influenced the next steps that you took in looking for a job?
S No. Throughout my whole career I've had to take decisions very often on my own and that's enough.
O It seems to have worked pretty well.
S Perhaps.
O How many students would have graduated B.Com with you?
S I don't suppose there had been more than about twenty.
O There was also a LLB degree going at the same time?
S Yes but that was separate. I don't think there was any contact between the law and the commerce students.
O When you thought of doing your B.Com degree you might have conceivably taken an Honours in Economics, why did that not occur to you?
S Because I'm doubtful if there was an Honours degree in Economics at that time. In any case to have sat it from the beginning after two years of mathematics failed it would have difficult.
O When you went up to study Mathematics why did you go into the Arts Faculty and not the Science Faculty which people might do nowadays?
S Because I knew nothing about it.
O Would you have been better to? Nowadays it's the same class but you end up with a different degree, it's the subsidiary subjects that you take that are different.
S I'm not in a position to answer that question
O Did you live in digs?
S Yes.
O Where were you?
S Richmond Terrace.
O That's Rosemount area?
S Yes. In fact I stayed for most of the time with Danny Gordon.
O Did you find it expensive or quite a reasonable proposition ?
S Quite a reasonable proposition.
O How did you get to classes from there? Buses or you walked?
S Walked or later cycled.
O Where did you have your lunch? Did you take a sandwich? There wasn't a Student's Union providing meals in those days I don't think.
S I couldn't tell you.
O Did you work for money in the vacations to support yourself in the summer?
S No, I worked on my father's farm.
O What sort of expenses did you have? You would have had to buy books and clothes?
S I'm afraid I have very little recollection.
O But you found life tolerable, you weren't always pinching for it?
S Yes.
O Were the digs cold?
S I had been accustomed to a rural background and it didn't strike me as unduly uncomfortable.
O Was it a flat?
S Yes.
O Would you have had sort of four hours classes in a day?
S Sometimes.
O What would you do for the rest of the day?
S Worked in the library. I spent a lot of time in King's College Library.
O The big one with the stained glass window?
S Yes.
O Was there a Student's Union at that time?
S Yes.
O Where about was that?
S That was under the Mitchell Hall.
O What is now the Debater?
S Yes.
O Would you have used that very much or was it too far away from King's where you were busy?
S There was a Student's Union overlooking the King's College playing fields. Between King's College and King Street, there were playing fields there.
O There's a little pavilion there now, was that there at that time?
S Yes, must have been.
O And you would have got coffee and snacks there?
S Yes, or play bridge.
O That was your relaxation?
S Yes.
O Did you make friends and socialise during the day with other people in your class? Did you play bridge during the day?
S Yes, sometimes between classes.
O Would that have been with your classmates?
S With classmates, yes.
O Did you do anything else on the social side during the day? Did you play sport?
S I was a member of the cross country team.
O Where did you run? All round the Bridge of Don?
S Yes, Bridge of Don.
O Was that a Wednesday afternoon activity?
S Yes. We went out by Murcar then back by Scotstown Moor. I remember one of our leaders madly took us across one of the creeks of the Don on a January day. In fact the first time I came to Glasgow was as a member of the team.
O Did you go to a lot of athletics meetings at weekends as a representative of the university?
S No, just a limited number. The university did not have meetings with other clubs, they just met other universities. We were the top team the year I was there but I wasn't the leader - that will be Henderson.
O How many people would there be in a team for cross country running.
S I think there were eight.
O How did you get to Glasgow?
S Came down by train.
O Hospitality with the corresponding team?
S Yes.
O Did the university praise you in any way for being in this team or was it just your private business? No blues?
S I had a half blue ? it's still through there.
O You didn't play any team games?
S I regarded cross country running as a team game.
O But you didn't try hockey? Danny Gordon liked hockey for example.
S No. I've a lazy eye which meant that wasn't such a good idea.
O Did you belong to any of the Debater or the other sort of clubs?
S Yes I was a member of the Debater but I don't recall any other of the societies of which I was a member.
O As far as I can gather your weren't particularly conscious of there being women at university, in the classes and so on, so they can't have been making much impression one way or the other as a group?
S No.
O Do you know if women used the same union as the men in those days?
S I don't think so. I've no recollection of women being in the union, on the other hand women were members of the Debating Society. I remember Mary Esslemont occupying a prominent place.
O Was there much mixing between different Faculties? Did you have friends who had nothing to do with Commerce or nothing to do with Arts, apart from Danny Gordon?
S Not that I remember.
O Were the facilities at King's Library good?
S Quite adequate for my purpose, but remember I was not taking an Honours degree. There was quite a useful reading room but I relied very largely on the notes which I'd taken in lectures.
O Did you have to buy a lot of textbooks?
S Must have. Yes, you bought them second hand and then traded them on to the next class.
O Did the university organise that or was it all done at a personal level.
S On a personal basis. The university was in some respects rather distant from its students.
O It was just an establishment and you had to fit in with it?
S Yes. I don't know if that comment is unfair but it's …
O I think it was similar in my day. I went up in 1956 and you did have guidance and so on but the university was the big thing and the students were the small fry who fitted in those days. Do you remember Principal George Adam Smith?
S Just distantly. I remember him taking the service at King's College Chapel which I attended regularly.
O Did he take it regularly because of course there was no chaplain in those days?
S I don't think regularly because we had quite a range of distinguished preachers who would come to talk.
O Was it well attended?
S Quite well.
O Was there a choir in those days?
S Yes. My late wife was a member of the choir.
O What did she study?
S She took Arts.
O Did you know her at that time?
S Just towards the end.
O Was there a Sacrist around? Did you see much of him? Was he more of a figure to the students?
S I had no direct contact with him. He carried the mace on formal processions but it was just as a figure that we saw him.
O Is there anybody else that you remember that you would like to talk about? Staff or peculiar student friends?
S None.
O Did you feel part of Aberdeen as a student? Or did you feel you were an incomer who happened to be at the university?
S I think I was an incomer.
O Did you enjoy it?
S I enjoyed my university days.
O I suppose one could say what would have made it better perhaps? More guidance for students?
S That was the major weakness.
O Yes, because somebody coming from a non-professional background would need somebody to point them in the right direction really.
S Yes.
O Did you have contact with Aberdeen people other than your landlady?
S None that I can recall. There were one or two teachers - Grant, I think, whom I knew through Danny Gordon and Alice Smith, she was a very distant relative.
O But it must have been in a way quite lonely except I suppose you were a group of students and you were all in it together and you'd been busy. And were you busy, did the course keep you going?
S Yes.
O What did you expect that you would get out of studying a B.Com degree?
S I assumed that it would be possible to get a post in industry or commerce.
O Did the courses that you attended fulfil your expectations themselves?
S Yes, because I became involved in accounting. In fact much of my business career was in the field of accounting.
O Did you find that when you started to apply for jobs later on that everybody said 'ah a B.Com, great' this was a help to you? Had they heard of it?
S I don't know how I came, I must have seen advertisements and so on. I told you I applied to Heinz and Henderson got it and then I applied to a firm Henderson and Crossfield who had branches world wide and who were looking for staff to send to their various branches.
O Was that an exciting prospect or a terrifying one?
S Exciting. More out of ignorance than anything else.
O Did they train you in Britain first or did they send you … ?
S A brief two months in London.
O And then they sent you to?
S To Java - a divisional headquarters.
O You just got the job from an advertisement, it wasn't that you knew somebody who'd done it before and you were following in anybody's footsteps?
S No.
O Was it a wise choice? Did you enjoy it?
S I enjoyed it. It was good to get experience of the way other people did things.
O I should think it was also enlightening in many ways?
S It was.
O Did you meet any other Aberdeen graduates when you got there?
S No.
O Did you make friends when you got there?
S Yes, there was quite an active community.
O Why did you move on from there.
S I did a term and then moved on to look for something else and went to South Africa.
O What took you there, again an advertisement?
S No. There's a bit I don't want to go into but the firm did have a contact in Jo'burg and I got it through, I think he was an Aberdeen man, MacKenzie, CA.
O So that was a bit of a break and then you …
S But I had a distant relative in Cape Town.
O Did you like Johannesburg?
S In a way yes, but I had been in Indonesia where there was practically no colour bar and the very strong colour bar in South Africa always gave me cause for concern. Even then, and it's many years since I left South Africa, I said these conditions cannot last permanently. I remember one day I was walking near the small hotel where I was staying and I saw a policeman making a native turn out his little bundle on the pavement.
O Rather brutally?
S Brutally and I mean just a few little things.
O Just not the way that people should behave?
S No.
O Was there a Scottish community in Johannesburg?
S I had little contact with them.
O Where did you stay?
S I stayed in a small hotel.
O And then you married when you were there?
S Yes. Mabel came out and we were married in Cape Town from the house of this distant relative. But the climate of Jo'burg did not suit Mabel. I had to make up my mind very quickly. The height of Jo'burg is about 6,000 feet, it's not very far from the tropic. You got this sudden drop in temperature between four and six, very hot mid-day and then very sudden drop in temperature between four and six.
O She found it hard to acclimatise to this?
S Yes.
O Had you found it a problem?
S No I hadn't.
O Perhaps you were working and was perhaps more difficult. Did you set up house when she came out or did you still live in the hotel?
S Yes. We had a black maid, Dora, who worked for us and I can still remember Dora coming in when we were having our meal and saying 'madam shall I light the lounge fire?', beautiful English.
O Had your wife been working in Scotland beforehand?
S Yes, she'd been teaching.
O Was she able to teach in South Africa.
S No, we weren't there long enough. In fact it would never have occurred to me.
O How did you get on finding a job in Fraserburgh to come back to? Was that easy or not?
S When I came back I went to the Training College but I did my teaching career, was interviewed for the post of teacher of commerce in Fraserburgh. At the start I had to set up the department.
O Yes, it would have been a new idea at the time.
S Completely new.
O Yes and a very good one I would have thought.
S Well, maybe.
O You don't think so?
S I started and then was there two years. A very pleasant time, a lot of very good friends in Fraserburgh, they've mostly have gone.
O But you had a very pleasant relationship with those people.
S Yes. I was friendly with Director Fraserburgh Academy, Kennedy and also with a minister, Rev J H Williams who I used to play at bridge. I understand there was a certain amount of feeling that here was a new member of staff mixing with the Chairman of the Education Committee.
O Still you would have been a very much more experienced member of staff than the average run of Training College products?
S Well, I'd been elsewhere.
O Did you take badly to being in a small community in any way?
S No. I liked Fraserburgh. I had a lot of good friends, mostly in commerce.
O Yes it's like that in the fishing communities isn't it?
S Yes.
O And then you went to Dundee to Morgan Academy?
S Yes.
O And that would have been a town/city school, senior secondary.
S Yes, it was at that time fee paying.
O Did you enjoy that?
S Yes, very much.
O And then you moved in 1946 to be assistant inspector of schools?
S Yes, at the beginning of 45.
O You were at that point taken in to do commerce?
S Yes, that was what they were recruiting for.
O And you found the job was rather different from what you might have expected. Would you like to tell us about that?
S It was varied because you were expected to inspect at all levels from infants as well as my own specialist field. But it happened that the inspector who had been in charge of commerce had died a year before I joined and automatically I became senior in that field which meant that I had to take responsible decisions with nobody to fall back on.
END OF INTERVIEW
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