| Description | Interview with Mrs Flora Garry recorded on 4 January 1986 by Mrs Elizabeth Olson
Transcript of Interview :
I You went up to Aberdeen University an the 16th of October, 1918. Did you intend to do an Honours degree in English when you went up?
FG I had to do an Honours degree in English because I wasn't qualified to do an ordinary degree because of the kind of highers group I had. I had originally intended to be a cookery teacher and not until six weeks before I left school had I changed my mind about what I wanted to do but we had a very good English master, called John Donald, at Peterhead Academy and he said to me, 'What are you going to be?' and I said, `I'm going to be a cookery teacher'. `Well', he said, 'there's plenty cookery teachers, would you not think of going to the University and taking English?' So I went to my mother, `Mr Donald thinks I should go to the University and take English', and my mother said, `Do you think you could?' and I said, 'Well, I could try'. So that was it, but I hadn't the right sort of highers group, because I didn't like Mathematics and I had higher Latin, higher English, higher French, Domestic Science and Art, which was not a recognised group far an ordinary degree. So when I went up to matriculate I was told it either had to be an Honours degree or nothing.
I Really?
FG So, there I was, so it was a case of sink or swim.
I Yes, did you have a bursary?
FG I had no, not a bursary as such, I had what we called Carnegie money.
I Oh yes, how did that work?
FG I think it was fifteen pounds a year.
I Yes, and was that much help?
FG It was a bit of help, but farming, my father was a farmer, and farming had been reasonably prosperous during the war years and he wasn't hard up at that time but for the next two or three years farming went into decline as it were and he wasn't so well off so that really, during my student days, I was always rather short of money. I had to watch the bawbees as most students have.
I Were you an only child? Did you have other brothers or sisters at university?
FG I had two brothers, but neither of them went to the university because you see we weren't a professional family. I cane from a long line of tenant farmers so that my elder brother ultimately went into the police force and he went to Shanghai and became a member of the C.I.D. in Shanghai and this was the saddest thing that ever happened to me. He was doing extremely well in Shanghai and getting on magnificently, he was a very good athlete and a musician and a very able chap, but he was shot by a robber and died in Shanghai where he's buried. And that was the worst thing that happened to me, far worse than anything really during the whole of the war. And then my younger brother carried on with the farm.
I Ah yes, so that you were making a new venture for the family.
FG It was a very new venture and there was such a wide gulf between the two cultures that I... I was brought up on a farm in the heart of Buchan and steeped in the farming tradition and also there was the dialect problem I had to speak two languages and then I went up to Kings and I wasn't prepared for the ceremonial and the ritual and the historical buildings and it took a lot of adapting.
I Really, did you bring friends from Peterhead with you?
FG One or two friends came from Peterhead with me. One of them took Honours French and German and one or two did Science and another one did Medicine so there were quite a few friends that I knew.
I Yes, and did you stay in digs?
FG Of course, we all stayed in digs. There were no residences in those days and I had very good digs in Richmondhill Road off Kings Gate. I remember the address yet. I stayed with a Mrs Knowles, 15 Richmondhill Road, and I was with her for three years. It's extraordinary looking back on that you know. I had a very nice bedsitter with a fire and a good bed and a table and three good meals a day.
I That was very good.
FG Do you know what I paid for that?
I Well, when I was a student in the fifties and sixties I was paying three pounds ten a week, but it wasn't for three good meals, it was bed and breakfast.
FG Well, I paid Mrs Knowles twenty-five shillings.
I Really, my goodness, and she gave you your midday meal as well?
FG She did.
I Were you the only student in the house?
FG I was the only student in the house. But the student quarter really, the quartier latin, was Rosemount.
I That's mostly flats, mostly tenements.
FG Mostly tenements, flats, tenements.
I And they managed to fit students in?
FG They fitted students in, the students usually got the best room.
I Really, yes, so I suppose twenty-five shillings a week would have been to the landlady perhaps quite a lot?
FG Quite a lot, that was just the usual rate and I suppose it was quite a lot and I had very comfortable digs. I think in a way it was a much better system than the present residential system. I have a granddaughter now a student at Glasgow University and I am comparing her experience with mine and she's in a residence and has to do her own catering and I'm sorry about that because I think it takes up too much time.
I Yes, when they could be studying...
FG When they should be studying.
I I agree with you. I noticed that you, the subjects you studied were grouped into categories. There was Language and Literature, Mental Philosophy, Science, History and Law. Was that for an ordinary degree, that they grouped them like that, or did everyone have to take something from each group?
FG I'm not quite sure about that. I know that I had to take either Philosophy or a Science.
I So you chose Zoology.
FG I chose Zoology because of the professor of Zoology at that time. He was a notable teacher and lecturer called Professor J. Arthur Thompson and I'd heard a lot about him, in fact he'd come out to our village literary society once to give a lecture and he was a household name really so I thought I would like to take Zoology and be with Professor Arthur Thompson. And I was rather scared of the idea of Mental and Moral Philosophy.
I Yes, and when you did the Zoology, was it a detailed course or was it a broad picture of the subject that they gave you?
FG I would have thought it was more a broad picture than a detailed course. I should think that the detailed course was more for Honours students or medical students.
I And do you remember, was it taught by lectures?
FG It was taught by lectures and it was Arthur Thompson all the time who lectured.
I Really?
FG But then we had labs you see and they were looked after by assistants and one of the assistants was a daughter of Arthur Thompson.
I Really, do you remember the examination system in Zoology, or how they gave you your results?
FG You wrote one or two papers on general questions and then you had an oral and you had a practical examination. You had to identify specimens and I didn't find that very easy because I knew no Science when I went up and even the vocabulary was strange to me. But I remember thinking I wonder if I'll get through Zoology because it wasn't up my street at all but I remember doing a rather good essay on the earthworm and I thought when the results came out, ''Oh I've passed, it was that earthworm that did it''.
I He was supposed to pin up his pass marks somewhere, did he do that for the Arts Classes? Pin them up in glass cases, the pass marks?
FG Oh yes, yes. The pass marks, do you mean in the class exams?
I I'm not sure, that's what I was wanting to find out.
FG Yes, he did. The results were pinned up...
I …on the cases, in his room, museum?...
FG ... in the lecture rooms, and sometimes in the glass cases in the Quadrangle. And I remember the first exam I had after I went up to King's. I think it was an essay, it was about three weeks or so before the war ended, and I remember Armistice Day, it was the 11th of November as you know and the English class was at 11 o'clock and we all assembled in the lecture room and I remember Professor Jack came in, looking very moved and agitated, and he said, `Ladies and Gentlemen, there will be no lecture today, the War is over'. And then he added, `The essay results you will find if you care to consult them on the wall of the lecture room and I remember this very vividly, I thought, `Oh, I wonder how I've done in that essay' and we queued up to read the results and I was very near the top if I wasn't the top at all, and I don't know which was the more important to me at that moment, the fact that the war was over or that I'd done so well in this essay.
I You were saying that as young people the war was only part of your lives.
FG The war was only part of your life, it had to be only part of your life because you were young, you were looking forward and you made the best of things and the war didn't affect us so intimately in a way as the next war did. I mean we had no raids, or nothing much to speak of.
I I suppose it was just that the men went...
FG The men went away and there was of course a social upheaval and women were doing men's work, and of course we had scarcities and shortages of all kinds. I remember when I did my cookery practical the inspectress came you see to supervise and we had to cook a dinner and they searched the whole of Peterhead for something to make this dinner with and all that they could find in the butcher's shops in Peterhead was an ox-tail.
I Really? My goodness.
FG That was all there was. It had been a meatless day you see and I had to do the best I could with this ox-tail.
I Did you feel under pressure to do anything for the war work, or as a young girl was it just...?
FG I lived on a farm, I was a farmer's daughter and I helped with the farm work and I remember one thing I did and I was just fifteen at the time. There was a job to be done in a field. It was called "shimin". I suppose you know what a "shim" is?
I No.
FG Never mind, it uproots weeds. And there's one single horse on the shim and my father said to me, `Now, you'll need to try your hand at the shimming', so I had to walk behind this horse up and down this field, when I was fifteen, and I managed in a sort of way. Well, I helped the kitchen maid with the work of the farm, the cookery, the baking, the hens, the swine, and then two of our good fee'd men left for the war and so that more of the farm work fell on the women folk, but apart from that I can't remember that I felt called upon to do any extra war work. I was so busy at home you see.
I Yes, I'm sure, but as a farmer's daughter you'd have had a lot to do anyway.
FG I'd a lot to do anyway and I used to spend my holidays helping in the kitchen and once I remember the kitchen maid burned her leg or something and was incapacitated for a while. Well, I did the kitchen work, I did the deem's work. For about six weeks, and very hard work it was, getting up at five o'clock in the morning, cooking for eleven, because there were eleven of a household you know..
I With all the men and yourselves ....
FG Yes, with the four men, and two parents and a grandfather and two brothers, so we cooked for eleven every day on a peat fire, and very primitive conditions on the farms in those days, and when I went into Aberdeen to stay in digs there, it was all so luxurious and..
I ...and someone else did the work...
FG and someone else did the work. In fact, in a way it was like a holiday for me to go back to King's. I remember enjoying the running water, the hot water, and the flush closets, because on the farm we'd no piped water and all we had in the way of sanitary provision was an earth closet at the back of the garden dyke. So you see the great gulf there was between our living conditions at home and when we went into the city to live in these very nice flats, or whatever, in Aberdeen.
I You were taught English by Professor Jack. Have you got memories of him?
FG Very vivid memories of Professor Jack. I'll never forget what he looked like and...
I What did he look like?
FG What did he look like? Tall, with a gown on, untidy, a shock of reddish fair hair, a face, he was rather like Wordsworth, this face, long but highly coloured and I think his most distinctive feature was his eyes, very prominent blue eyes and he had a most angelic smile and a charming manner, but he seemed so strange to me because he spoke with what we called the Oxford accent. He'd been at Oxford and he seemed strange to me and I wouldn't have known what to say to him really, I would have felt embarrassed if he'd spoken to me to begin with because in these days professors were highly respected and you wouldn't have dared to chat.
I How many students were there in your first year class, do you remember, roughly?
FG I can't remember exactly, I think there must have been about seventy in the English class.
I Was that the biggest class of the time? It was in my day.
FG It must have been one of the biggest classes of the time..
I For first year?
FG Yes.
I And how was it done, by lectures?
FG Lectures almost entirely.
I And a general course for the first two years?
FG A general course, what we called ordinary English, then the next year was advanced English, then junior Honours, then senior Honours.
I Yes and the numbers would have gone down I suppose.
FG The numbers went down considerably as people were more or less weeded out, if that's the right word.
I Did you do Old English?
FG Yes, we did.
I And what did you think of that?
FG We did some Old English in the first year and the lecturer there I think was a Dr Grant who afterwards I think went to Edinburgh and I think he began the Scottish National Dictionary.
I Really?
FG Dr Grant, yes, so we had Old English from him out of Sweet's Anglo Saxon Primer
I Yes I used that, sometime later.
FG Yes, that's still going strong
I I think so, it seems to be.
FG Yes, well we had that, so we had a smattering of Anglo Saxon.
I Did you have to do Beowulf and ....
FG Yes, we did Beowulf later on..
I Middle English, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight..?
FG Yes, we did that too, later on, because we did Anglo Saxon and Middle English more intensively, when we came to the junior and senior years you see.
I And did you find that your Scots tongue helped you with that or was it completely different?
FG No, you forgot your Scots tongue when you went into King's you see.
I Yes, and spoke English.
FG You spoke what passed for English.
I Among the students as well? Among your friends?
FG Yes, amongst the students as well. I think we had this feeling that the Doric, the Buchan tongue, wasn't exactly genteel. We'd been conditioned you see to feel that way.
I Yes, did you speak the Doric in school at Peterhead? In the playground I suppose you would have.
FG A bit, in the playground we did.
I But not in the playground at King's?.
FG Not in the playground at King's, no.
I And did you do any Scottish literature in your English course?
FG All I can remember is the ballads. And I remember Professor Jack lecturing on the ballads and he was a magnificent reader. He was really an actor manqué you know, and he was most impressive.
I And would he have treated them as being part of a culture or just as poems?
FG As far as I know, he treated them just as poems, just as part of general literature. Just a section of the English literature that you had to know something about.
I Yes, did they do Burns?
FG I don't remember doing Burns at all.
I Then, were there other staff in the English department besides Professor Jack and Dr Grant?
FG Yes, we had Professor Jack for the first year which I think was an excellent thing. He took the ...
I Whole lot..
FG Ordinary, the whole lot and everybody had him for the first year. In the second year we had a Miss Beatrice Rose...
I She was my headmistress at the High School ultimately.
FG That is Miss Beatrice Rose, and she had newly come up from Oxford I think, and she was our lecturer in our advanced course. I didn't get on very well with her. I didn't like her nearly as well.
I She'd be very austere I should think.
FG She was very austere and very remote, off putting. And also she was very beautiful.
I Really? She was a very gaunt women in her sixties when I knew her.
FG When she was a young, she was extremely beautiful.
I Very clever I believe.
FG Very, but there was very little rapport between her and the students so I didn't enjoy my advanced year nearly as much I did when I had Professor Jack.
I Yes.
FG Then, in junior Honours a chap came along, I think again from Oxford, called Claude Collier Abbot, and we liked him. He was an authority we were told on Gerald Manley Hopkins and had done quite a bit of research and written a thesis about him so we respected him highly. We liked him, Claude, we called him Claude, and then in the final Honours year we got Professor Jack again.
I And that had been...
FG That was wonderful.
I Did they encourage you to write poetry and things of your own?
FG None at all, no encouragement at all.
I Did you feel you could write at that age, yourself? Did you try writing for your own pleasure?
FG I did my essays...
I Yes, what was required but not...
FG No original stuff, no, not at all, it never occurred to me. I had no impulse to do that at all. I just did what we were told to do.
I Yes, and you enjoyed your English course, did you?
FG I enjoyed the English course in many ways, but now that I look back on it I wonder if it wasn't a bit inhibiting.
I Yes, mine was I think, in some ways.
FG You thought that too?
I You were very much constrained ....
FG You were constrained, and to write about what other people had written about other people's writing. And I think you were made far too self-conscious about your writing so that you, you'd no humanity or naturalness in your writing. You were always concerned about style. And the shape of your sentences and the building up of your paragraphs. That sort of thing. I think it was inhibiting and I'm not really very sure if I would have written better if I had had no English Lit. at all.
I Well?
FG But this I don't know.
I And you certainly had the experience of having time to read many different authors?
FG You had time to read and you learned a lot about technique in a way and about things like versification you see, and you were able to look on a piece of writing with a very criticial eye, so critical that it almost inhibited yourself from doing anything.
I Yes, you also did French. Did you enjoy that?
FG Yes I did French. Very much. Sixteen, about sixteen...
I Sixteen people would graduate with Honours
FG Graduated in my year.
I Ah yes, and by that time would there have been any men then?
FG Yes, about half men and some of the men came back from the war you see, and one or two of them was lame, and one or two of them had been injured and wounded you see, but they were all able to complete the English Honours. Yes it was just about half and half.
I Yes, but they hadn't started with you in first year, had they. They must have caught you up somehow?
FG I think they probably did, in the first year yes. Quite a number of them were in the English class, far more in the English class than in the French class. The French class had only these two little boys.
I Ah yes, and did you have tutorials in the English department?
FG We did not...
I It was all done by lectures?
FG It was all done by lectures, I have no memory at all of tutorials.
I And so the essays were written by the whole class, or, I mean how... If you were asked to write an essay would you all have been doing the scene thing, or could you follow your own interest and say I'd like to write about Wordsworth or something?
FG No, titles far the essays were given out. You were told, no, you couldn't chose your own thing. You had to...
I You had to follow the scheme, yes, so it was very structured.
FG Very structured, very much so.
I Yes. You enjoyed your time in French?
FG I enjoyed my time in French very well. We were taught by a Dr Cholet, an elderly Frenchman. I don't think there was a Professor at the head of the department.
I No, he was in charge, it must have been about the end of his teaching career?
FG It was about the end of his teaching career, he was an elderly gentleman with a beard if I remember rightly, called Dr Cholet, and all I remember his teaching me was the Chanson de Roland. That seemed to be a very special interest of his and very often it was rather boring because he was most meticulous and he took it line by line, you know, but I got through my French degree on the strength of my school French.
I Really?
FG I had two excellent French teachers. One at the village school that I went to, whose name was Mary Ann Crichton .....
I Gavin Greig's assistant... My husband's definitely going to want to see you.
FG She was an excellent teacher and I had her for the three years when I was doing my intermediate studies... and she was quite excellent. Went to Peterhead Academy and there had very good French teaching so that I really didn't need to do any work at all in French when I went up to the University. I got through my French and was in the merit list on my school French which says a great deal for the teaching of modern languages at Peterhead Academy at that time.
I Yes, so you only went to Peterhead Academy for fourth year and fifth year?
FG For the fourth, fifth and sixth. I was three years because I had to stay on for the sixth year for my higher Latin and Art and Domestic Science.
I Ah yes, and which school were you at before that?
FG The village school at New Deer.
I Ah yes, and that always, so that Peterhead would have had a few pupils in first, second and third year?
FG A great many, yes.
I And then more...
FG And then more came in, in an influx of pupils from the surrounding area to do their fourth, fifth and sixth years, and we took the train. We went down, caught the Great of North of Scotland Railway, it's no longer there, but we went by train and pupils went on to the train at Maud, Mintlaw, Longside, Inverugie and so on.
I Would you have liked to go to Peterhead in first year, or did that make any difference to anyone?
FG No, I think I did very well indeed in the village school. I think I was better at the village school. The only thing I was a bit behind with was Latin, because I started it only in the second year so I was always a bit late with Latin and didn't sit my higher Latin until the sixth year.
I And who was your Dominie in New Deer? She was the deputy wasn't she? Mary Ann Crichton was the deputy.
FG Mary Ann Crichton was the French teacher and she'd taught at the primary school before she took on the modern languages but she was the deputy for Gavin Greig at Whitehills, whereas I went to New Deer school in the village.
I So, you also studied History?
FG Oh, I had to take History as one of my subjects.
I Yes, that was compulsory?
FG It was compulsory and the Professor there was Professor Sanford Terry and we knew that he was very musical. He was an authority, was it on Bach?
I I believe so, yes.
FG …yes, and he also conducted or took a great interest in the choir and the rumour went round that if you wanted to do well in your History degree, you joined the choir and sang loudly where Professor Sandford Terry would spot you, you see.
I And so you did, did you?
FG I did indeed because I was able to sing quite a bit in those days and I enjoyed the choir very much indeed.
I What sort of things did you sing?
FG Oh, I can't ... the one that I remember best of all is `Sean Campbell went to college, because he wanted to'
I I don't know that one
FG 'He left the croft in Gairloch to die in vain an' droop. Sean Campbell died at college and the skies of spring were blue', I think it went like that. That was a beautiful thing, and I suppose we sang just the usual things.
I Yes, but you enjoyed that?
FG Oh very much, the choir was a great relaxation and interest because I was quite musical.
I Yes, but you couldn't do music at University in those days, could you? There was no Department.
FG No, you couldn't do music at the University, but I wasn't good enough to do music anyway I think.
I No, but you enjoyed it.
FG I enjoyed it very much, that was really one of the highlights of the University, the lighter side of university life, the cultural side, and I got through my History degree.
I You did, do you remember what he taught you or did it fade into the background?
FG Very uninteresting, very boring, eighteenth-century Europe. He couldn't have been worse and he wasn't really a very good or inspiring lecturer, voluble and you were kept scribbling notes the whole hour, you know and then you just swatted up your note and that was it, and if you had a good memory you got through your degree.
I I believe he taught his course in two year sessions so that if you happened to be in one particular year you got the first part of the course and if you happened to be in the next year your got the second part of the course, but that you couldn't do both?
FG No, I didn't know that, I wasn't aware of that but I do remember how dull the stuff was.
I Yes disappointing isn't it, in a way. And what about Education?
FG I don't remember the Education class much at all.
I It was a Mr John Clark
FG It was a Dr John Clark, I think he was a doctor anyway.
I And that would have been at King's as well?
FG No, the Education class I took was at Marischal.
I Really, and Zoology would have been at Marischal as well?
FG Zoology was at Marischal.
I Yes, we were talking about the buildings. You said that your English and French were in New Kings but that the Elphinstone Hall had...
FG The Elphinstone Hall wasn't there at that time, it hadn't yet been built.
I So there would have just been an expanse of grass presumably? Or was it trees or what was the...?
FG There was big house, there was a manse, the Divinity Manse was there and I think I'm right in saying it's no longer there but it was one of the Professor's houses that occupied that space.
I Next to the Library?
FG Yes.
I Yes, my goodness. Was the new Library, it isn't the new Library, the one with the big windows, did you use that, you know you go in through the quadrangle and the Library's opposite?
FG That is were we went..
I And it would have been fairly new at that time?
FG It was fairly new at that time.
I Was it a comfortable place to work in?
FG Very comfortable indeed and I remember the Library, the librarian was a Miss Brown I think.
I Yes, and was that the person behind the desk who gave out the books?
FG That was so, the person behind the desk who gave out the books.
I They have such an influence on students, don't they? If they're kindly people it helps.
FG It makes such a difference.
I Was the Library well stocked? As far as you could see?
FG I thought it was enormous and most impressive but then I was very young in those days and I no experience of libraries.
I And nothing to compare it with?
FG I thought it was wonderful.
I Was P.J. Anderson Librarian?
FG He was.
I Do you remember him, or did he have any influence ....?
FG A remote figure with a beard, I had no contact with him.
I No. What about, was there a little Sacrist's box when you entered the quadrangle?
FG There was and the Sacrist.
I Do you remember the Sacrist?
FG Now is the Sacrist the same as the Edilis no indeed it isn't. Now we're talking about Sacrists, well, I remember the Sacrist very well. He was called Christie but I can't remember the name of the Sacrist at Marischal. I wasn't there.
I No, it's the one that's sort of on the doorstep that keeps an interest in.
FG At King's it was Christie.
I And was he kind to the students? Or crusty?
FG He was very good indeed and he's referred to in a poem by James Sutherland, it was a poem which appeared in the Alma Mater which was our magazine and he refers in that poem to Christie mowing the grass. Oh yes, he was quite a character and a great friend to the students.
I Yes, did he wear a gown?
FG Oh no, I remember him pushing a lawnmower most of the time.
I Ah yes, so he'd been busy?
FG I don't remember him... he may have worn a gown an ceremonial occasions.
I Going into Kings?
FG Graduations and so on, but usually he didn't.
I Did the students go to chapel on Sunday mornings?
FG Yes indeed, we turned out very well to chapel.
I Yes, it must have been quite difficult to get there?
FG It's not a big chapel..
I No, I meant from Kings Gate to...
FG Oh, I walked.
I You just walked?
FG Yes I walked most of the time. I sometimes took a tram but I quite often walked.
I If you took a tram it would be at King Street, would it?
FG You had to go down into the city and then out along King Street
I Yes and then walk through?
FG Besides if you walked you saved a halfpenny or a penny you see.
I Oh yes, which was a consideration.
FG It was nothing to me in those days to walk a mile or two.
I Yes and you'd have walked down to Mounthooly and then over that way?
FG That is so.
I Yes, and was there a University Chaplain who would have taken the services?
FG There wasn't an official University Chaplain, we had visiting preachers and the Principal himself often took the service, Sir George Adam Smith,
I Yes he was a Divinity man originally?
FG Yes he was.
I Was he good speaker?
FG He came from Glasgow, he had a church in Glasgow and then came to Aberdeen and then he became Principal. So that he was a very fine preacher but the preacher that I remember best was a Professor Robertson. I think he belonged to the Free Church Divinity Faculty and he was a complete spell binder, no notes, no gestures, and everybody hanging on his words, he was a marvellous preacher so I remember him very well.
I Was there a Chapel Choir in those days?
FG There was a Chapel Choir and some students were in the Chapel Choir but many of the city professional singers were in it too.
I Really? So that it would have been part of the town's life, the chapel services. And did the staff process in gowns and things or, came in with the minister in those days?
FG I think there was a procession.
I Yes and the Professors all sitting in their chairs at the side.
FG They sat in their own special chairs.
I I've forgotten what you called them. Did the Principal have much to do with the students?
FG The students were very much aware of the Principal. They liked him, they respected him and they felt that he was really interested in them and they also felt that his family liked being in old Aberdeen and several of his family took degrees...
I At Aberdeen University?
FG At Aberdeen University. The Adam Smiths were very much part of the student community.
I Did they meet you socially?
FG I can't remember ever being invited to the Principal's house but what I do remember one day I was walking down by the College Bounds to a class, there were two of us, my friend Louise Donald who walked with me to the classes, we were very friendly then and remained so for the rest of our lives and we were walking down and we met the Principal coming down from King's going to a meeting in Marischal probably and he lifted his hat to us and said `Good Morning' and you know it made our day. He was that sort of man. Courteous, kindly, I can't speak too highly of the influence that the Adam Smiths had on the student life in Aberdeen.
I That's nice. Did you feel that you belonged to the English Department or to the whole University, or the Arts Faculty, or you know what was the sort of picture you had?
FG This is a difficult one, but I think you felt you belonged first of all to your own nucleus of English Lit, you know, and after that your loyalty was to the few societies that you'd been able to have time for.
I What did you belong to?
FG The Literary Society was the only one, and the Christian Union, so that you had a loyalty to that.
I What did the Literary Society do?
FG Well, we gave papers, the various members gave papers.
I Was it mostly the English Department or did, most of the English Department?
FG I don't remember that the English Department had much to do with the Literary Society.
I No, I meant the students, the students in the English Department.
FG Yes, yes, and I remember giving a paper on Lady Gregory and I remember giving another one on Meredith. That's the sort of thing we did and then remember that there was the lighter side after the war, dancing was all the craze after the ex-servicemen cane back and every society had its own annual dance, usually held in Kennaway's Rooms.
I Where was that?
FG At the top of Bridge Street, it was a cafe and a restaurant and they had rooms, and many of the college hops, as we called them, were held in Kennaway's Rooms so that dancing did play a part in our social life.
I Was there a Students' Union?
FG I think there was some sort of Students' Union at Marischal but I never belonged to a Students' Union, I was not aware of a Students' Union and there certainly wasn't a Women's Union at King's because I remember if we felt empty during the forenoon and wanted something to eat we went to a little bakers shop.
I Jack's Cafe... the Aul Toun Cafe
FG That's it, and there we had a bun and maybe, I can't remember if we'd anything to drink or not, but we certainly bought buns. It was very austere you know compared with the present day.
I Yes, it was still there, in fact it is still there, but I don't know if the students use now because they've so many other facilities.
FG They've so many other facilities.
I We use to use it in the fifties. Was it Jack's Cafe we called it? We called it Jack's Cafe but I don't know who Jack was.
FG I can't remember what we called it, it was just the wee shoppie
I Ah yes, so that you would have had nowhere for the students to congregate except the classes
FG Not at King's, we hadn't.
I And if you'd felt, if you needed a meal in the middle of the day, you couldn't have had one?
FG I wouldn't have known where to go.
I You had to go home to digs for that?
FG You had to go either home to your digs or if you hadn't time to do that, you went to one of the cafes...
I And bought something, quick?
FG ... near Broad Street, near Marischal. Because I remember I had to leave a class at King's and walk to Marischal for Zoology and I think I popped into a cafe at the top of near Broad Street and had a cup of coffee and a bun there and then I didn't have my dinner until I went home to my digs between three and four in the afternoon. That's how we did.
I Ah yes, would the men have gone into bars.. to pubs, the male students?
FG The men students, the ex-servicemen in particular, made the Athenaeum their principal howff.
I They could afford that?
FG They could .afford that, but that was principally the ex-servicemen, I have no idea what the men students did in the way of liquor.
I I just wondered about meals, you know. It's nowadays accepted as a pub thing but..
FG I have no idea, but I think there was something to be had at Marischal, but certainly not at King's.
I You mentioned that your friend was Louise Donald. As you know she kept quite a lot of the University's records latterly?
FG She did.
I What, where did she come from?
FG She belonged to Aberdeen. I was never in her house, I'm not quite sure even where she lived in Aberdeen but we met I think at a fresher's social, when I was in my second year and she was in her first and then we happened to be walking to King's to classes at the same time and we always met at the sane place and walked to King's together and talked about the Lecturers, the Professors, you know how students talk so that began what was really a lifelong friendship.
I Oh yes, she took a great interest in everything?
FG She did, she was a very lively, most intelligent person, full of character, humour and extremely well organised.
I Yes, she'd a very hard life?
FG She had a very hard life.
I I remember her as our English teacher and she was very...
FG We, we lost contact for a few years and the next time I met her, my husband and I and my little boy were holidaying at Newburgh and we took a house there and I learned that Louise Donald and her two little boys were living there at the same time so I looked Louise up. I remember meeting her on the beach with her two little boys and the three of them were walking on the sand and the three of them were barefoot, walking along the sands at Newburgh. So that started the friendship again you see and then her husband died very suddenly and I wrote to Louise and we just carried on from there. She was extremely hospitable and when later on I had to go back to Aberdeen in connection with my little book, she always asked me to come and stay with her. And we had her down here staying with us several times.
I She had enormous energy, you know, the number of things she packed into her lifetime with collecting things for the role of graduates and all her teaching and her own family and so on.
FG I don't know how she managed it, she must have, she burned the midnight oil.
I She must have.
FG She did, because often when she wrote to me she would say, 'Well I'll have to stop now because it's after midnight and I've this to do and that to do tomorrow".
I ....in those days?
FG Very active indeed.
I Where did it meet?
FG I can't remember the place where we met.
I Somewhere in the University or possibly?
FG Yes it was inside the University somewhere I can't remember, but I was a member of the Christian Union only for about a couple of years and after that I felt I had too much to do and I wasn't entirely in agreement with some of the opinions.
I Yes, they were always very evangelical.
FG Very evangelical and I had some reservations about the things that were discussed and their attitudes and anyway my time was more fully occupied so that I wasn't an active member at all really except perhaps in my first year and the reason why I was really attracted to the Christian Union at all because my cousin, Evelyn Kellas, was one of the leading figures in the Christian Union. She married John Kellas and he'd a brother Jim Kellas and they were quite kenspeckle figures amongst the student community...
I Ah yes, and they'd introduced you to it?
FG They introduced me to the Christian Union.
I Ah yes, were there facilities for sports in those days?
FG There was, but I was not in the least bit interest in sport. I hadn't time for it, I wasn't interested. Sport meant nothing to me at all.
I Nothing to you, no swimming, nothing like that?
FG Well, I did in fact just go to the baths occasionally down at the beach, but that was all.
I And that would have just been for fun with some friends, not a...?
FG I was not really interested in sport so I can't tell you anything about the sports side of University life then at all.
I Were the women students on a par with the men in those days or was it a male society that you sort of crawled along in?
FG No, I wouldn't have said it was a male society and a female society. I think the students, as today, were apt to pair off and they didn't call them that in these days, boyfriends and girlfriends, but there was this tendency for pairs to become associated together and be known in that way. I know in our English class you see, Bill Forbes and Peg Bowman for example were very friendly and ultimately got married.
I And was there any sort of representation of the students officially. I mean did you have an...?
FG Well, we had an S.R.C., the Students' Representative Council, and I was a member of it for a year.
I Did you feel they did anything important?
FG They talked a lot.
I Yes, and what about?
FG I can't remember but that was in my first year and I had no knowledge whatsoever of business procedure or how to conduct a meeting and I decided this was not for me, but I remember a very energetic and intelligent and highly respected member was Mary Esslemont.
I Oh yes, and she would have enjoyed the committee side?
FG Yes, that suited absolutely because she was doing Medicine at the time, having done an M.A. and a B.Sc. before that.
I So she knew the University very well?
FG She knew the University very well, she was a leading light of the Students' Representative Council, but whether they were effective or not I really don't know.
I But you as a young woman student were appointed, you must have been elected?
FG I was elected in first year.
I Why, do you remember?
FG Simply because I was good looking.
I Well that was nice.
FG That was all, that was the only reason I could think of because I had no other qualification.
I And you were presumably willing to stand as well, which.. You'd have agreed to stand as well, you must have felt...?
FG I must have agreed to stand but I probably didn't know what I was standing for.
I Yes. Do you know if the students had any formal contact with staff? You know, nowadays, the S.R.C. are an the Senatus I think. There's a couple of representatives for each faculty.
FG No, I'm not quite sure what you mean by formal contact.
I Well, involved in the staff committees.
FG No, I never...
I I don't think so.
FG No, no, the only contact we had outside the lecture room was when we were invited to tea at the Professor's house.
I And did that happen often?
FG We were invited in groups and I think once a year you were invited to the Professor's house to tea and it was a most painful proceeding. We were all far too shy and we didn't know what to say or how to behave and it was especially difficult for the younger people who didn't know what to expect and it was really very embarrassing so we had that sort of contact and occasionally I was asked to go to Professor Jack's house to discuss an essay, but that was simply using his house as...
I ...as a study?
FG An office.
I Where did he live?
FG Queens Road.
I Not one of the Old Aberdeen manses?
FG No, I can't remember the number in Queens Road, I think it was 22 Queens Road and he took the tram every day along King Street and every student remembers that. He filled up his big great coat with tram tickets and the inspector came on and then asked to see his tram ticket, and Professor Jack put his hands into his great coat pockets and took out handfuls of tickets and presented him and said, `I think it must be one of these'.
I Oh dear, that's lovely, isn't it. And did his wife have anything to do with the students, just at the tea presumably?
FG Just at the tea parties.
I Which must have been an ordeal for her too?
FG Difficult to talk to, I never felt at home with her at all.
I Really? . No, and did you feel more poised as you worked your way through the years?
FG You did, you felt more experienced and more self-confident as you worked your way up.
I Was there a Charities Show at that time?
FG I think the Charities began the year after the war, the Charities Show. Or it may have been the year after that but I do remember that very vividly.
I Do you?
FG Oh yes, yes, that was quite an occasion, with all the lights.
I Did you take part?
FG I think I just went to look on it, I don't think I marched.
I No.
FG But students dressed up and there were torches. I think what we called it then was the torchlight procession.
I Yes and that was started at the beginning, at the end of the war.
FG Yes.
I And were they collecting money for charity then?
FG They were.
I And who would have been the most active people then, if you didn't feel you were part of it. Would it have been the lads or?
FG Eric Linklater, George Rowntree-Harvey,
I I don't know of him.
FG I've forgotten who the rest of them are, but I think if I were to consult the Students Handbook I've no doubt I would get the names of the people who took an active part in the torchlight procession. But I do remember that Linklater and George Rowntree-Harvey.
I Linklater was a contemporary of yours, was he?
FG Linklater was a few years older than me but he was at the war you see.
I Ah yes.
FG And he was one of the ex-servicemen and came back after the war...
I Into your class?
FG No, indeed he didn't. What he did was, he went into Medicine.
I Of course, yes.
FG And he started Medicine and he made very heavy weather of it, particularly I think Anatomy, and he had a few shots at getting through his medical degree and finally decided this wasn't for him and he switched over to English Literature and from then he never looked back. He was brilliant and I think finished with a first. But I never spoke to Eric Linklater, he was, even in his student days, he was a bit of a legend, but I often wished that I could speak to him but I never did because I was younger and I was too diffident and I never had a chance to speak to him.
I Was J.C. Milne in your class? The one that wrote the poems, 'The Buchan...'
FG I don't remember J.C. Milne at all, he was older than I was you see.
I He would have been in the war too.
FG He was in the war and I've no memory of J.C. Milne at all as a student and I got to know J.C. Milne only about twenty years ago, far too late. I wish I'd known him much earlier because he was a gem of a man.
I I didn't know him personally.
FG You didn't know him personally?
I No, he was in charge of the training college when I was a teacher but that was...
FG But he really was one of the nicest people.
I Really, yes. Is there anyone else who was contemporary with you that you can think of that we might talk about? You mentioned Mary Esslemont but she'd have been in the medical faculty. You said that the ex-servicemen came back into your class.
FG The ex-servicemen came back in trickles and then quite a flood of them really and the lecture rooms were filled up with these returning, demobilised men.
I What were they like, were they happy to be back or were they fed up at being students after being men for a while or...
FG Some couldn't settle down to life as a student and some were only too happy to be back and worked very hard and did extremely well, particularly I think some of the medical people. Some of them had been wounded, one or two of them were cripples and I remember one fellow whose name was Forbes Catto he was a medical and he used to walk up the road with me when I was going home. He lived in the same road as I did and he had been shot in the face and he had lost an eye and he had only the use of one eye and the other eye was replaced by a glass eye and I used to feel sorry for him but I could never say that to him and he was very brave about it. He used to joke about it, he was a very nice fellow, Forbes Catto, he graduated as a Medical and then I think he went to Birmingham and for a long time, all his lifetime, was a successful and highly respected Medical Practitioner and I read his obituary in the BMJ only a few years ago. Now that was an example of an ex-serviceman returned with a disability.
I But he still coped?
FG But he still got through his exams and took a leading part in the social life of the University.
I Did he, did they talk about the war experience? Did you find that the ex-servicemen would tell you what it had been like or... you didn't ask them?
FG I didn't know the ex-servicemen personally because there was quite a gulf between me, remember I was just nearly about eighteen, I was only a teenage girl and there were these men a few years older who'd had all that unimaginable experience and I was diffident about approaching them and I had really very little opportunity of talking to them. Where could I have talked to them? You didn't talk to people at dances, there was no opportunity of discussion that I remember. So that I really didn't know what they talked about and I think you would need to read Eric Linklater's White Maas Saga, the first book he wrote to get an insight into what the Medical student and the returned men were like. That's the book that I would recommend.
I I must read that, yes.
FG And of course I had one or two young men, and one in particular, but then he wasn't a returned, he was American.
I No, it'd had been one of your own generation?
FG ...he was one of my generation, so that I really had very little contact with the ex-servicemen.
I Yes, what strikes me with the people that, you know say grandparents' generation that had been through the war is that nobody would talk about it. You know very much it was something that had happened and was just about pushed out of their mind.
FG They just pushed out of their minds.
I Yes, I think so, with reason I'm sure. So, if you were in the English Department and there wasn't a Union, how did you meet say Medical students and other people like that?
FG At dances.
I Ah yes, and that would be in Kennaway's Rooms?
FG In Kennaway's Rooms or in the Mitchell Hall. We'd big dances there.
I Oh yes, would there be Saturday night hops there?
FG That kind of thing, yes, so that I'm afraid I saw rather too much of this young man you see and in a way wasted too much of my time with that side of things. Human nature being what it is this was unavoidable.
I Yes, isn't it. When did they put up the commemorative boards in the chapel for the men who died? Do you remember that?
FG I can't remember exactly when that was.
I Would it have been while you were a student or...?
FG I can't tell you that, I know what it looks like, I've been back once or twice but I can't give you the exact date when it was put up.
I And was there public rejoicing at the armistice time? I mean, you remember your personal episode of the Professor telling you that the war had ended and your essay, but were there...?
FG What I do remember is the class was dismissed and by myself I walked to the Bridge of Don and walked along the beach with nobody. I didn't want anybody there at all because I had to come to terms with a few things. One of them was the end of the war and the other was having done so well in this essay. And I just walked along the beach all by myself and thought now that's the war over, what's the world going to be like? Will there be big changes? How am I going to do in this University? Is it going to be better or what? And you'd a feeling of hopefulness and you were afraid, and you had no idea what the country would be like, whether it would be a land fit for heroes or not.
I Or not, yes.
FG So that was my personal. And then I went home to my digs and that was, I don't remember, there must have been rejoicings in Union Street, I've no doubt there were but I didn't go.
I It would have been... Did you as a student feel part of the, do you feel that the town had much to do with the University in those days?
FG The town?
I Yes, of Aberdeen. Now, I think because of the residences the University's `away over there' and in a way it's remote from the rest of us.
FG Well, once a year there was the 'kirkin of the cooncil', the Town Council came to the chapel service.
I To King's College Chapel?
FG To King's yes.
I And what for?
FG Just to take part in the service. It was known as the service for the `kirkin of the cooncil'. The Town Council, they all came, the members of the Town Council and those who were entitled to wear gowns did, and if they all did, I can't... there was that, but that's all I remember of contact between the town and the University.
I Did you feel a stranger in Aberdeen?
FG Very much so.
I All the time that you were a student or just at the beginning?
FG You were living in two different worlds. You had the life of the student with the nice up-to-date facilities and speaking English of a sort and contact in the classrooms with the Professors and then you went back to the farm for the holidays and back you were again in your traditional life.
I And did you like going back or did you, were you quite happy to go back or did you sort of resent it by contrast?
FG I didn't, no I was quite happy to go back because the two worlds were so entirely separate. And you just were in one day and in the other the next day and back you were to the life of the farm and the beasts, and your parents and the work and the speech and the traditions and all the village folk that you knew, the minister, the doctor and the teachers and what was going on and all the local scandal and gossip so that's the only way I can put it. It was two different worlds.
I Different worlds, yes, and you didn't feel estranged from it because of your...?
FG I wasn't estranged from either of them, I just had to live in whichever one I happened to be in at the time. And it wasn't too difficult.
I No, I was just thinking of Chris Guthrie, you know, who did find difficulty,... in the story [Sunset Song]?
FG Ah yes, yes, she had the same sort of background in a way.
I In a way.
FG But of course my parents were rather unusual people. They weren't really meant to be farming people at all, they were both writers.
I Really?
FG Yes, my mother and my father both. My father wrote for the Press and Journal for thirty years you know...
I As the Buchan Farmer?
FG As the Buchan Farmer and he wrote for other newspapers too.
I Factual stuff or?
FG For a thing called the Beef Trades Journal and another thing called the Buchan Observer and he wrote three articles every Sunday.
I Really? Yes, and fitted it in with all his.
FG And then he was say, 'Three quid I made the morning, gaein to the fishing'.
I What kind of fishing, fly, river fishing?
FG He was a very keen angler, he fished in the Ythan.
I Yes.
FG Yes and he would have been better employed on the farm leaving, he left the work to the men, the four fee'd men, and he went to the fishing feeling he was justified in having written three articles on the Sunday. Then my mother wrote quite a lot. She wrote a lot of plays for broadcasting which were broadcast from the Aberdeen studio in the forties and fifties when Elizabeth Adair was taking charge of the...
I And would Louise Donald have spoken in them or that sort of?
FG Louise Donald was certainly, she was indeed.
I Yes I remember that, yes. So that do you think they would have liked a different life if they'd been born in your generation? Do you think they would have liked to leave the farming community as you did?
FG Do you mean my parents? Yes, they were intellectuals and I don't think they were natural born farmers at all. They both came from long lines of tenant farmers, they were rather outlandish or eccentric. They weren't in the mainstream at all.
I And they would have left the school at fourteen or twelve?
FG I'm quite sure if they could have chosen, they would have chosen a profession.
I Did you feel that you were going to teach? I mean there was nothing else far a young woman to do?
FG I never thought of anything else and I had practise in teaching. We had in those days when I was still at school and at Peterhead Academy, I had two periods of actual practical teaching.
I Really?
FG Yes, I was fond of teaching and I never thought of doing anything else. What else was there to do? I wasn't attracted to nursing and being a secretary to somebody, that wasn't, I wasn't attracted to that at all. And it was always you were just going to be a teacher and I was really quite happy to do that because I enjoyed teaching.
I Yes and you said that you combined your teachers training with your degree. How did you do that?
FG Well, you went to your English lectures in the forenoon and you did your teacher training in the training college in the afternoon and then you were allocated to schools and did some practical teaching there. So I had a very busy time.
I Indeed yes, you said that was to save time?
FG It was to save time.
I It would have saved you a year?
FG I though it was my duty to my father to try and save him a bit of money you see because I had two younger brothers coming after me you see. I wasn't an only child and I had to think about the financial side.
I And when you went to the college was that in St. Andrews Street?
FG Yes
I And you were sent out to schools?
FG Sent out to schools.
I It must have been hard to fit all that in?
FG It was quite hard to fit it all in and I learned nothing about teaching at all at the training college, I thought the lecturers were a waste of time. They were up in the air, they hadn't their feet on the good solid ground at all and I learned all my teaching from watching good teachers being actually in the classroom with class contact. I thought that, I hate to say this, I thought the training college was a complete waste of time.
I So that in a way you were pleased not to spend a whole year solidly there?
FG I was indeed.
I Would it have been better if you had been? Would you have got a better course do you think if you'd taken a complete year at the college? Was it the same classes.
FG I think not, I think I had most of the main things - Logic, Methods, Geography, and all that, I think I had most of the necessary things but in fact they weren't necessary at all as far as I was concerned.
I Because you'd gone out to teach English I suppose, in secondary schools?
FG Yes and also History.
I Which schools were you attached to, do you remember?
FG In Aberdeen?
I Yes.
FG There was one near King's Gate, can you tell me the name, do you remember?
I Rosemount, Mile End?
FG Mile End.
I Yes that's a primary school.
FG I was there.
I Yes.
FG And then I taught for a bit in Gordon's College.
I Did you like that?
FG Very good experience. They gave me F classes to teach.
I Oh.
FG Little hooligans, so that was extremely good experience. I learned quite a lot there.
I If you could cope with that..
FG Oh, I could cope with that.
I And you don't remember a Rectorial when you were at University?
FG I don't remember a Rectorial. There may have been one. It may be something that I simply haven't remembered.
I How do you feel your university time affected your own writing? This is just going on to you.
FG I don't think it helped all that much. You were inhibited all the time and it was all second hand things. Criticism of other people's writing, learning dates, learning facts and you were made to feel very self conscious and self-critical. I think it was probably good in a way, you learned about writers and books but it wasn't, there was no real creative outlet. I suppose cultivating a good style, a finished style, a good literary style is in itself an act of creation. I think it is. But there I was writing in a strange language all the time. This acquired English and my literary style was very good actually. In fact Professor Jack said when he gave me my final testimonial I was the one student who had a real feeling for the sentence. But what was that doing to me as a creative writer? Not very much. But on the other hand, if I hadn't had this course on English Literature I would have missed a great deal. I wouldn't have had the same width of reading for example.
I Yes, did you think in your English or did you think in Scots when you were a student? Or did it depend what you were thinking about?
FG It depended what you were thinking about and sometimes you were thinking in a mixture of the two.
I Your parents wrote in Scots?
FG My mother wrote in Scots, she had a great knowledge of the dialect and I learned a lot of the dialect from her and from her father, my Grandpa.
I What was her writing name?
FG She wrote as Helen Campbell. I've one of her plays in that filing cabinet there.
I And your father would have written in English?
FG He wrote in English but he knew Scots very well too. And they were both very interested in dialect and in words and in new words in fact my father used to make words. He made them up, composite words, descriptive words.
I Yes, but they brought you up in Scots, as a child.
FG They did, and they encouraged me to speak Scots which was rather unusual at that time because very often genteel parents tried to suppress Scots as not being proper you see, but my parents were both very interested in the dialect and in words so that I had no inhibitions there at all and we were always collecting words and discussing words amongst ourselves.
I So that it must have enriched, made it a something you could be proud of, which I should think is unusual for a...?
FG Very unusual.
I I mean, I was brought up, not in your sort of environment quite because my father was the country doctor...
End of Interview
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