| Description | Interview with Mrs Cecilia Penny (nee Rennie), who graduated MA in 1953. Recorded at a graduate reunion on the 28th June 2003. The interviewer is Jennifer Carter.
Transcription:
JC So, very nice of you to come along, thank you very much. Perhaps we could start by establishing why you came up to university? Had you a fixed career in mind or did you just feel it was the right thing to do in 1953?
CP I always wanted to be a teacher. I was brought up on a farm and away back I knew that was what I wanted to do. But whether it was a plan to come to university- none of my family had been at university. I went to Ellon Academy and took a reasonable group of highers there. And in those days that was more or less taken for granted you went on to university. But only two of us came from Ellon Academy to the university that year-1950
JC I suppose it was a fairly small school then was it? I mean now it's huge but …
CP Ellon Academy, not that big.
JC No, what 500ish or something?
CP Something like that, I think you're spot on. About five to six hundred.
JC And only two of you came on to university at all or was that just to Aberdeen?
CP Two of us in my year came on to university.
JC Yes, that's an amazingly small number isn't it?
CP Yes it is.
JC That's very interesting because I would have thought that proportionately in 1953 you know there would have been more university applicants.
CP In 1950 there were more who came before us, more came after us, but in our particular year just the two of us. Some stayed at Ellon Academy for a sixth year and then came to higher education in Aberdeen. Remember a notable third person because our Ellon Academy Rector Samuel Lipp came up that same year to study Divinity and went on to become a Minister.
JC You were a lean year. It happens sometimes doesn't it. You say you took up university because of wishing to teach. You didn't think of going straight to the College of Education? You preferred the university?
CP Not really, no. I don't know. I was pretty ignorant about alternatives but was encouraged by my teachers. I would have come to university anyhow, I think.
I was brought up on a farm, quite simply. My father would never have thought of higher education but my mother did. She was the influence.
JC Interesting isn't it, it's often the mother who is the more influential and the keener on higher education.
CP Yes, I don't know, but certainly my mother encouraged me.
JC Did she have any higher education herself or was it just something she wished to see for you?
CP Something she wished to see for me because she came from a farm at the Bridge of Don and she certainly had no higher education but she had quite a sound education. After the local school at Balgownie she had a spell at the "Demonstration School." She had studied Shakespeare there and quite a few things that farm girls like her mightn't have done. Remember her quoting scenes from MacBeth in the farm kitchen! Plenty books around. She made sure we all had an education.
My brother went to Gordon's Colege and my sister went to the Central School .and it was a bit of a coincidence that I went to Ellon Academy.
I went to the local Primary School,in Newmachar, that's where our farm was. It was a Junior Secondary and I could have stayed on with most of my friends. Mother was not happy about this One day she met a very good friend for afternoon tea in Aberdeen. I was there. This friend was Dr Gordon's wife from Ellon formerly Lizzie Shepherd from the Bridge of Don who had been a teacher.
And my mother said,
'I dinna ken fit we're gan tae dee aboot oor Bunty. Far is she gan efter Newmachar?. I wint her tae get Latin and French . Fitver she needs!"
" Why don't you send her to Ellon. There are a lot of country bairns there!"
So I did. Travelled from the farm across to Ellon for five years, but that is another story!
JC Goodness, how long did the journey take?
CP It was quite a journey. I cycled three miles from the farm to the station and then there was Newmachar, Udny, Logierieve, Esslemont, Ellon, those were the stations.
I can still remember the "calls" at each station!
JC About half an hour?
CP Yes I would say so. Half an hour on my bike to the station and half an hour on the train.
JC Yes and I'm very interested that your mother who was obviously a person with her own ideas as it were took a snap decision based on a friend's advice like that.
CP Ah, but she'd been looking. She'd been seeking, whether I should come into Aberdeen or what I should do. She'd been thinking about it. She might have even been discussing it earlier, The meeting was just as I remember it.
JC Was your sister, your older sister, the one that came to the High School?
CP To the Academy, the Central as it was then. Yes, I was the youngest one.
JC So she didn't think of you following in your sister's footsteps or had the Academy changed much.
CP No, my sister got a bursary for the Central School, I think that was it.
JC And your brother perhaps a bursary for Robert Gordon's?
CP I think so, yes.
JC So that was significant. Was money a consideration or was the farm doing reasonably well?
CP Money was a consideration because it was a small tenant farm. We all worked very hard, and money was certainly a consideration. And all the time I was at University I travelled from the farm. There were no Halls of Residence then just "digs" but there was no question of living in town. Not that far from Aberdeen. I just travelled from the farm and then I paid my bed and board with making myself useful! I was tractor man in the hay and main harvest and I helped my father outside, especially with the sheep. I helped my mother inside as well. Any time I moaned about all the work he said,
"That's fit yer daein. Ye're paying yer bed and board. Rale lucky quine, so nae complaints."
JC Yes, very interesting. And were the two other children treated like that or was it because you were the youngest and didn't get a scholarship?
CP No, there was no question about not getting a scholarship or anything like that. Margaret(she became a nurse) and George(became a civil engineer)- we all worked on the farm and did our bit.
I was fortunate that I was the youngest one and got the chance to go to university. I had the definite advantage of being the youngest one.
JC So things were perhaps just that shade easier by the time you came along.
CP Yes. You are right. We were reasonably comfortable but we certainly didn't have money to spare.
JC Yes, it's interesting isn't it?
CP Yes.
JC And what about affording university then, even with living at home and travelling in? Were there fees to pay or was the government paying the fees for you?
CP I can't remember very clearly. I know that I certainly got a bursary, I got money for travelling expenses.
JC That would have been from the local education authority I assume?
CP I don't know. I can't remember. I know there was some arrangement regarding my bus fares. I can't remember paying fees. I don't think I had fees to pay. My folks always saw that there was money for anything necessary like books. I had to "ca canny" however.
But I do remember that I had the same brown coat for three years and I've never liked brown ever since.
JC It's like a school uniform, yes. And you travelled you said by bus in from home to Aberdeen and that was again what about a half hour's journey or more perhaps?
CP About half an hour, yes you're right. I caught the bus at Kinghorn cottages. Our farm was Kinghorn. Then to Newmachar, Parkhill, over the Don, through Dyce Bucksburn and into Aberdeen. And then I came off at St Machar Drive and then often ran downhill to King's, you know, depending on the timing. It was quite handy but I had to make my way from there to university. I thought nothing about it, I was quite comfortable about the journey with plenty friends on the bus and time to read.
Remember in terrible weather and snow, plonking my wellies or muddy shoes over the fence for the return journey, before I caught the bus.
JC Yes, and you were a strong farm girl if you had been working outdoors.
CP Well, I wasn't soft. We made our own way, yes. One difficuty was that I was actually very shy then. I was not as verbal as I am now. I've always loved words though, but I was quite shy then. I remember I loved letting all those words of educated lecturers pour over me
JC So for day to day spending and for clothes and things did your parents give you pocket money, give you an allowance?
CP Yes I think they must have. It's difficult to say but I mean I always had enough and certainly as regards clothes and books and things they gave me. And I remember clearly my father with a real burst of generosity gave me my graduation gown. It was a really nice one. And he bought me a bookcase at one point. So he did encourage me in his way.
They made sure I had a good place to study. Still had no electricity so I worked with the light of a Tilley lamp. Dad would shout upstairs when the kettle was boiling for a cup of tea.
JC Very nice. Interesting though about the money. You said you always felt you had enough but I suppose with being on the one hand fairly short of money and on the other hand having to travel must have limited the sort of social life at university for you did it?
CP I can't remember that it did limit me very much but I had to be careful I hadn't money to splash around. The thing that really limited my social life during the week was the fact that I had to get the last bus home.
JC Which was at what time?
CP About 10 o'clock in Blackfriars Street, or at the top of St Machar's Drive So it was difficult really joining societies. I couldn't really. Above all I wanted to be in the Student's Show. Have always loved singing, dancing etc. Always that last bus to catch though and a dark road up to the farm!
But at the weekends I stayed in Aberdeen on Saturday night and went on dates and to many dances.
I remember at the last get together, the Quincentenary, and somebody asked me "Were you famous for anything?" and I said 'Not a bit', but I did say, 'I'll tell you something- I never missed a hop.'. I loved dancing.
JC Was that a Friday night?
CP Saturday night. I was blessed with friends in Aberdeen and I would stay the night Saturday night and then take the bus out to the farm on Sunday morning. So that was my social life and it was a good social life too.
JC Yes. And the hops were at the Union were they?
CP Yes. Sometimes the Elphinstone Hall, sometimes the Union.
Sometimes the Mitchell Hall. There were special occasions in the Beach Ballroom( eg.Arts Ball)
JC And quite cheap for students?
CP I think so. Yes, they were.
JC So you made lots of friends obviously if you had lots of people you could stay with.
CP I made a lot of friends, a lot of good friends. I stayed mainly with family friends.
at weekends.
JC Mostly through the classes you did or through other kinds of contacts?
CP Both. Through the classes and of course school friends that I had kept up with. And through the hops I met a lot of people at the dances and so on. And then I did country dancing, Scottish country dancing. There was an arrangement for Wednesday afternoon for sports, which was interesting because I didn't take part in sports but you were expected to do some thing, so I did Scottish country dancing and I made friends there too.
.
JC Yes, a different group presumably with each ?
CP Well, Elma Craig, what's her married name, she's here today, she was a great Scottish country dancer. The ones at university were all university people that were doing the country dancing. You would meet several people again and again.
One very important contact for making friends I met later at University was Madame Murray's Dancing Classes in the Cowdray Hall, in the year before I left Ellon Academy. Came in with boy from next farm(Mums in action again!) for company.
JC Good, that's very interesting. So coming now more to the academic side, I mean for teaching, did you have to follow a prescribed course or did you choose what you wanted to do and did you do just a straight forward MA or did you do the conjoint classes which some people did at the College while they were doing their degree?
CP No I don't think there were conjoint classes in those days,(unsure what you mean by "conjoint classes"but having a stab at it!) no, and with my degree I didn't gear it to teaching at all. It was an ordinary MA I took. And you had to follow, I'm sure you've heard other people speak about this, but you had to follow the format as regards number of languages and you had to have a science subject and I studied geology and I enjoyed it tremendously. I still am interested in geology. And you had to have a philosophy and I had Logic. So you had these constraints, if constraints they were, in choosing subject but there was plenty scope.
You landed up with this wide MA, which I still think is a good idea because when you go out into the world you've had the discipline of science, philosophy and languages The only thing I took because I thought I was teaching was Biblical Study and I thought I maybe should take that one. Any other subject was just because I chose it or I was good at it or because it was part of the course, something like that.
The first year, I studied the subjects I had brought from school French and Latin with the exciting new one Psychology added..
JC So a fair range of subjects and I suppose that meant you didn't get to know particular teachers very well because you did at the most one year in their classes, but do you remember individuals?
CP Some I remember clearly
JC Did you know many of them?
CP In Latin for example, Peter Noble.
JC Oh yes, the man who went on to King's College London, that one?
CP Perhaps, I don't know where he went because in a few years I went to Canada, but that's another story. But Peter Noble, he was memorable, He really was. And I enjoyed Latin. I couldn't understand how people didn't like Latin because I loved Latin and appreciated his sensitive lecturing.
Badnarowski was memorable in Logic and he did very well. I remember Bickersteth I remember to this day, things that stick in the mind.
JC And his subject was?
CP English. And he defined the difference between tragedy and, how did he put it now?A tragedy and a disaster. He made us think and it wasn't just standing up there lecturing.
And then French was my best subject, I had two years of French. And I am still very fond of French and I'm quite fluent in French because I've spent some time there. But it was Professor Roe in those days.
JC Freddie Roe, he must have been quite old by the time you came up?
CP Not really. No, he would have been maybe a few years before he retired. And I was particularly interested in French History and I'm trying to remember, oh it was Stalker, I think he was the one.
JC Who taught French History?
CP Taught French History and I loved the different history of France.. .
JC It sounds as if you were a really enthusiastic student.
CP I was. Like a duck to water. Aware of my ignorance and tremendous luck being there!
JC Yes, and did you do well? Did you get a good class certificate and things ?
CP Yes, I did reasonably well.
JC Got merit certificates?
CP Yes. I had a few distinctions. And the peculiar distinction I had was that I was first in all my year at Biblical Study and got the prize! It was in my 3rd year and I had learned how to write essays and how to compare.by then.
JC You had a retentive memory.
CP It's not a time to be modest. No genious but I was the Dux at Ellon! I think the main thing is I worked hard at all my subjects.
JC Who did Biblical Studies then? It wouldn't have been Dr Lillie, he wouldn't have gone that far back?
CP I'm trying to remember. I think it was! Unsure about the name of the man. I know that Davidson was an assistant along the way. A distinguished man. Fifty years ago is a long time.
Liked Phemister, Geology Prof. Learned so much in laboratory situations and bus outings. He had Style. Remember before the final Examination, he came to the front and had a special instruction for the Arts Students as opposed to the Science Students,
" I want short Facts from you lot-not pages of answers which go on and on about how much you don't know."
We laughed uproariously, and then-heads down!
JC It is, it's a long time, but it's interesting that you remember some of the people, yes.
CP I remember them all whether I remember their name or not. It was a great influence on me because I came right from fifth year.
JC So how old were you in years when you came?
CP Seventeen.
JC Just seventeen, I see.
CP I didn't take a sixth year as many of them did, I just came right in.
JC Did that seem a terrific shock and a change from school or did it seem …
CP It was a huge change and I sometimes think it wasn't until my last year that I was really into my stride. I was studying and I worked well but there wasn't much help given about learning how to study or the psychology of study or anything like that. You just got on with it. I could have done with some more advice!
JC Was most of the teaching in these various classes you've mentioned, was it mostly by lecture or did you have tutorials and small group teaching as well?
CP Mostly by lecture. There certainly were tutorial groups when I was doing advanced French and we met in groups then, yes. But mostly it was by lecture.
JC And did anyone still dictate lecture notes or had that finished by the time you had graduated.
CP Well we certainly all took copious notes, I mean that was the main thing and there wasn't any handouts or anything like that. We just wrote everything down. And consulted many books
JC But there were no literally, dictated notes, like one's heard some funny stories of a slightly earlier generation of lecturers who spoke at dictation speed.
CP Well, I must say that Rex Knight's wife, Margaret Knight did just that. Most lecturers went slowly. …
JC She did that did she?
CP Well, she was easy to write down, you know. She went at a speed that I remember that I found it, it quite simple to get notes and so on, but I don't think that was intentional. She just went at that speed, which was easier for students of course. And I had Rex Knight and I should have mentioned him because he was a very distinguished professor.
JC A brilliant lecturer I believe, yes.
CP Yes, I feel very fortunate having had him.
JC And did you as students have any social contact with these people who taught you? For example, did any of them ever invite you into their own homes?
CP The only ones I remember was the professor of Biblical Studies (Dr Lillie? because he invited us back to his home and it was very nice). Different students were invited back. He lived somewhere near the Brig o' Balgownie, down that way and he was the only one who socialised with us.
JC So did he invite the whole class in little groups, that sort of thing?
CP We were invited in little groups.
JC For tea?
CP For tea, that's right. And his wife spoiled us which was very nice but lovely! I wasn't aware that he was pioneering but I think he was -just such a humane man and this was just part of getting to know us. Inside I thought "Just like Mr Chips!" a favourite book!
JC And you enjoyed it as a student? You didn't regard it as an ordeal having to go and have tea with the professor?
CP No. I was still quite shy in those days but I had a great capacity for enjoyment then as I've always had. And I remember it was gracious, it was lovely, china cups, nice sandwiches and of course nice to see my fellow students on their best behaviour!
JC Yes, indeed. Among the fellow students were there any people whom either you've sort of kept up with or who have become subsequently famous and you say 'gosh I knew him or her when ?'
CP Yes. There were quite a few. I mean Iain Cuthbertson for example.
JC Oh the actor, yes.
CP And there are a few people here today that I miss, that are no longer with us, who are dead. But Iain Cuthbertson, he was well known. He was such a big man.
JC Yes, he must have been well over six foot.
CP Oh yes. Then you see where the coffee shop is now at King's, that was our library, and I would sit down at a desk. All the people, the distinguished people, they were upstairs, they had their own desks, but I never aspired to the dizzy heights. I just had a desk there. And as I'd be studying Iain Cuthbertson would always come along and have a news, he was one. There were quite a few distinguished people. I'm just trying to remember their names. There was St. John Shirley for example, and I remember in particular the day that King George VI died. And St. John Shirley came on to the platform in whichever lecture place we were in and he did it with such dignity and he said 'the King is dead, long live the Queen'. Little things like that you remember and treasure.
There are many old friends I keep up with and quite a few of them have distinguished themselves!
The beginning of the" Scotland the What" team was in my time!
JC And of course you'd have been a student in the Coronation year in that case wouldn't you?
CP Yes I was, because I remember I did a Geology exam next day .My folks were glued to the radio (we didn't have television) but I just had to get to my room and study. But that was my Coronation Day, I was studying for an exam.
JC So you went and saw all the newsreels later presumably did you?
CP Well it was great to see them afterwards. Get caught up with them.
JC It's very interesting about the way in which the library seems to have influenced people, and I think you said the special people, they had been presumably honours students who went up to the top were they?
CP Yes. Honours students, or it mightn't have been particular disciplines but if I speak generally they would have been honours students. Those who were you know high fliers and they'd have their own desk up there.
JC Yes, with a little name card?
CP Yes, that's right.
JC And you didn't aspire to honours although you say you did reasonably well?
CP Yes. When I came up to University I was going to do Honours French because I've always loved French but I soon realised that really I wasn't good enough. I got Advanced French but just by the skin of my teeth and I realised no to honours.
I would have really benefited from having a sixth year because, well I was realistic to know it wasn't an option. I didn't even ask anybody about it. I just knew myself in my heart that it was better that I just stop there with an ordinary M.A.
JC If you had done Honours French would it have been an obstacle to have to go abroad for a time because I presume they had a requirement for residence abroad did they?
CP Well actually I went abroad voluntarily.( also had been across before university.)
JC During your degree?
CP During my degree, yes. It was my advanced French year and I just finished exams and so on. But this is a long story. A boyfriend of mine, Ray Lascelles had a sister who lived in Lyons and knew the La Famille Valette there who were looking for an au pair girl. I applied. And I got it! He told his sister about me. But I spent the whole summer there and it was of great benefit. I took on the whole family teaching them English.
JC Wonderful.
CP And it was a wonderful time of my life.
JC And you were able to go away like that, leaving the farm and the farm work? Had they found somebody else to slot into your place?
CP No bother. They were other workers besides me!
JC They just took on extra work themselves.
CP Yes. But they obviously managed without me that summer.
But the first time I went to France was while I was still at the Academy. I'm very grateful to my folks here because I had a pen friend and this pen friend invited me over to Paris. And I was just sixteen. And when I said to my Mum and Dad, I said "Weel, we hinna got the money. I canna gang ye see."
My mother said "Of course you can. I've been putting money into your bankie every Friday since you went to school.Take it out,.That's your money. Go"
So I did with another friend of mine. We went to Paris together. That was tremendous. I cried every night with home sickness. But I was never so homesick again. And that working class French family took me into their bosom. And I was "la petite Cecilia". I was one of the family. This stay.for a couple of weeks, started my love of France. Went to the Catholic Church, school, theatre. Saw sights, danced on the streets on Bastille Day, ate delicious French food. Learned swear words! Saw Cyrano de Bergerac!
JC But it must have been a huge culture shock for a little girl from, a sixteen year old from a farm.
CP I know. It was, it was quite a thing.
JC And you and your other girlfriend travelled all the way there yourselves?
CP We travelled to Paris and then she went to her family, I went to my family, and we met up again coming home. My mother insisted on that one.
JC That you had to travel as a two?
CP Yes.
JC But how did you make the journey? Do you remember? Was it by train all the way?
CP By train to Newhaven and the first time I'd crossed the Channel (to Dieppe)in the old boats where you were quite frequently seasick. I discovered then that I liked the sea. It was a great adventure. And that influenced my French you see because I became reasonable at French.
JC Yes. So did you go on to a career in teaching after university?
CP Yes I did.
JC What kind of teaching did you do?
CP After I got my degree, I went to Teachers College, That was down at St Andrews Street, It wasn't up there at Hilton of course. And I could have gone on to teach French, advanced French, but I was very interested in primary teaching. And that's how I started off. And I taught first of all at Tillydrone, near Powis and that was a tough school there. And again that shaped me. I have taught in some tough schools over the years. Taught a fair bit of French in Canada and on my return to Scotland.
I always knew that I was going to Canada because of my mother's folks, (my father's folks most settled in the north east). My mother's folks they went to Canada, New Zealand, all over. So I went out to Canada in 1958 and taught in Montreal for a couple of years..
JC So you went literally in a professional capacity not to stay with family or anything?
CP No, in fact I've always been a bit stubborn. My Uncle Bill Wright was secretary treasurer of the school board in Burlington, Ontario and would have smoothed the way. No, I went to an actual job in Montreal. I emigrated, intending to stay. They advertised here in Scotland and I went out in the days of Cunard Liners. Great!
JC And then came back to teach again in Britain?
CP Eventually, yes. I married, there's a real story there. I don't know if you want to hear all this?
JC Oh it's interesting, yes.
CP It was, it was very romantic as well. When I was at University here, Alan Bruce Penny was one of the students. He'd been in the Navy and then came to University, one of those ex-servicemen.
JC Were there many when you were a student?
CP Yes, there were.
JC There were still quite a few around were there?
CP Yes. And that was quite an influence on the student population because they were more mature, They weren't always sensible but more so than us! They did have an influence on the students, yes. Just the width of ages and maturity you know.
JC So you knew this chap as an undergraduate?
CP Yes. And I knew he was a good guy and we liked one another but there was no romance or anything. Because at the weekend when I was here at all the hops, he was country as well, but he went home to near New Deer and he spent the weekend there. But I met him again in Montreal.
JC And what was he doing out there?
CP He came out to teach.
JC Like you, yes.
CP Yes. He'd been to Gary, Indiana and back here again and then came to Montreal to teach, yes. Met up again, it was very romantic indeed.
JC So you met again and married and then came back to Britain?
CP Yes. We went to Ontario after that, near where my Uncle Bill was actually. But we were there about maybe six/seven years and then came back to Fife(mainly because my mother -in-law needed help badly).. And my son was born. There. But I've taught more or less the whole time. When my son was little I taught playgroup and nursery school in Fife and then back into it full time once we came north, full circle to the north east. Our son was and is disabled so we learned a lot the hard way.
JC So that ordinary MA in 1953 was really quite an investment wasn't it?
CP It certainly was.
JC Because it was a kind of foundation for everything you've done since.
CP Yes. It was a kind of degree that you could do anything with. And I did take diplomas after that. I did add to it. Because when I was in Fife, the school where I taught had the dubious honour of having the poorest kids in Fife. You know when they were taking the reading age of pupils, they were really poor and tough and rough. But with my days at Tillydrone I wasn't too worried you see. And I took a diploma in learning difficulties in Primary and then when I came north eventually here I took another secondary diploma when I came back to Aberdeen
I was invited to come into Child Guidance work. And it was Douglas Connochie who was the Psychologist then. Margaret Taylor, all that lot. As bosses I had, as Principal Psychologists: Gordon Booth and then Ken Edwards
My area was all round the Ellon area. I was one of the first learning difficulties teachers in Aberdeenshire.
JC School psychologist, well not a psychologist but a learning support person.
CP And then when the time came that they wanted to start a unit for the Problem teenagers based in Fraserburgh, for all the surrounding Area Academies., I started it. In 1976, for 16 years till 1992 as Head Teacher. And I'm happy about that. I really am, because it was a real group, co-operative, teaching set- up. For teenagers with a variety of emotional problems. Emotional, Educational and Behavioural problems. School phobia, all this kind of thing: also the kind of pupils that the schools said 'never darken my door again'. And I found that we worked as a group with other teachers as well. But it was a most interesting thing to do although TOUGH.
JC That's tremendous, yes.
CP No regrets. I was asked to do a fair bit of lecturing at Teacher's College and take teachers interested in helping such pupils under my wing. Did a fair bit also as National President of Learning support and committee member of the Association for Workers with Maladjusted Children, to organise Conferences and Work shops etc.
JC Good. Coming back then to your student days which is really what we're mainly focusing on, is there any area of your experience that we've not covered, something you think we ought to have looked at?
CP I specially liked the pioneering bits along the way both in Canada and Scotland. And the fact I had studied at Aberdeen gave me confidence to do it. I started the Buchan Epilepsy Association and the Ythan Speakers Club. Was Founder member of the Book Of Deer Project: Buchan Tourist Group:Scottish Remedial Association:Horse Riding for the Disabled.: The Buchan Writers Group And so it goes. I know I could not have achieved what I have done without Aberdeen University
JC Other kinds of interests that we haven't spoken about? For instance, I mean the 1950s, I was a student myself, I was virtually a contemporary of yours though I graduated a year later I think, but we were quite concerned about various kinds of politics when I was a student.
CP Yes. This is where I was a little bit naive and I remember friends were much more politically inclined than myself, against the Vietnam War for example, and they were quite active. Mostly words you know, rather than actions. For myself, something I learned to do.was to broaden my political horizons:
I've always been fairly liberal in my views, this after my Mum, but I remember I was in the Student Union most days. Having a shower, a meal etc.
I remember the peaceful room I used to go to- right up on the top storey of the Students Union. I was always waiting for buses and reading. I used to acquire the Spectator for the Conservative point of view and the New Statesman for the Socialist and the Daily Worker for the left to communist then. And I used to sit and read them all. To study the different points of view!
JC So you were doing a self education course in politics?
CP Self education, yes I did. In fact at the University, I was seeking width as well as depth!. You know music, theatre this kind of thing you see. This was a great adventure to me to hear classical music and so on and that was all during my university years
JC We were talking a moment ago about your widening your horizons in all sorts of ways when you were a student and we were just on music.
CP This I feel is very important because it wasn't just taking the degree. It was the people I met that I still am friendly with. I mean people like Joycelyn Ho A Shu, a Chinese girl from British Guiana then, and she married the Hungarian Paul D'Urban and I was at their wedding in the British Council Building, in the Ship Row. I met people from all over the world.This has to be stressed as real education where we learned from one another. Aberdeen was small and friendly and we knew folk in all faculties.
JC Were there many international students?
CP Oh yes, yes. And I remember Joe Hilmy from Egypt and some black men and women. Roland and Gaetan Harvais from British Maurititius.There was quite a few and this was an adventure to me. Just making friends with them all. And as regards music , and as I say political views, I realised how silly and how ignorant I was. And that's when I branched out and I had the chance to branch out.
JC Was religion important?
CP Yes it was. In a rather interesting way I feel. Because I was brought up in the church, went to church every Sunday, all this kind of thing. And when I came to university I was a kind of going away from religion, rebelling, as I was in other things. And it wasn't until I took Biblical Study that it got me back, you know. Because as I studied about Jesus and all this kind of thing, I thought now, you know, I began to realise that there was something there. I don't describe myself as deeply religious but I'm certainly religious. One thing that I haven't said is singing. I've loved singing all my life and been in choirs.What I asked for here was "Could we have a sing song at this reunion with all the songs 'Abdul the bulbul Emir' and all those?" But NO
JC Gosh, that was still being sung in the 1950s was it?
CP Oh yes. And I really feel that music has always been very important to me. I did play the piano and being called Cecilia I had to do something to live up to my name!.
JC Indeed yes, your patron saint.
CP But music has always been important and the widening again was here.
JC Sure. So what occasions, as it were, were you singing 'Abdul the bulbul Emir'
CP Every time we got together, you know.
JC Just informal sing songs with friends?
CP Yes, I'm just trying to remember but certainly when I went home from hops. And I was friendly with a man there from the North of England and he taught me all the 'Lampton Worm' and all those you see. But we sang a lot, we would sing going home from the hops, you know, going up Union Street and singing quietly and we would kind of branch out a bit louder when we got a bit further up. There were occasions we were all together and singing and I'm trying to remember when, but we sang when going anywhere by bus!.
JC I bet students nowadays don't do that.
CP We certainly did and I still remember the words and so on.Do the students today sing "Gaudeamus igitur?" I remember singing after all the hops with heart full and holding my boy friend's hand.!
JC Coming back to religion, I suppose you never went to the Chapel because you were always home on a Sunday, is that right?
CP Not often, occasionally I did. No, you're right. I was home and I went to my own church at Newmachar there.
JC Any other aspects of university, I mean for instance, I don't know if you had any informal advisers, whether Regents or whatever?
CP We did have advisers because I think it was Edward Wright who was my, you know, I can't remember the correct name for it, but I was certainly interviewed by him. And he listened to my thoughts and tried to advise me. I just saw him once, maybe twice at the very most.
JC To sign off what you were going to do at University?
CP More just to see that I was OK and happy in my choice rather than a big influence. But there weren't guidance teachers or anything like that in those days you see. And it's good that students have that now.
JC So he would have been your Regent I suspect, I don't know?
CP I guess he was, yes. Because what we tended to do was, in first year we took the subjects we had at school. So I, well Psychology was a new one, but I took English and French. No I didn't, it was Latin and French and then I went on to English and stuff later. But you just tended to take the subjects you knew.
JC Yes, interesting. Well you'll be pleased to hear Sir Edward Wright is still alive.
CP Yes, yes. I'm grateful to him for all he did. And of course I didn't have Mackinnon but …
JC But you knew all about him I'm sure.
CP Yes. I've always loved stories. In fact I am a storyteller now, not about actual people I may say but there are rich stories. About Mackinnon
JC Which is your best Mackinnon story?
CP There's a well known one when his wife arrived at the door and she had a pair of trousers over her arm, you know that one?
JC Yes.
CP So I won't go on with that when she thought he wasn't wearing trousers. There was a time going down Union Street, and this is true, he was standing there looking thoroughly unkempt as he usually did with papers under his arm and he was heard saying 'No madam I do not sell newspapers'. And that was true.
JC And I've always liked the one which I don't know if it's true or if it's apocryphal when he was said to have been going along Union Street with his nose in a book when he stumbles into this hole which the navvies are digging in the road and the man he nearly steps on says 'Jesus Christ' and Mackinnon immediately says 'but strictly incognito'.
CP I don't know if I believe that one but I like it very much, yes.
JC OK, anything else we've not covered then that you would have liked to talk about? Something to read into the record.
CP I don't know. I was logic librarian in my year.
JC Oh, a student librarian.
CP Just they needed somebody, I think it was just you know from the students, and you see typically of me when they said 'is there somebody, would one of you volunteer' and nobody else volunteered. And I thought oh what a shame, so I volunteered. It was very good because I had access to books and logic and I didn't see any advantage myself but I enjoyed it and I got, you know I'd talk to Bednarowski and this kind of thing when I would be in putting back library books and so on. It wasn't a heavy job or anything like that but it was quite important looking back.
JC How did that work in connection with the library? I mean are we talking about the main library or about a class library?
CP It was a class library, yes.
JC So somebody had to administer it.
CP There was the lecture room and the room next door, and it wasn't much administration, I think it was more a token thing, a student representative.
JC Did you have to actually issue the books then?
CP Yes! To my fellow students.
JC Sounds very grand.
CP It does, yes. But really, I mean it was, I feel very grateful to this University, And a beautiful one to come to. Been a great influence on me.
JC Yes, we're very lucky aren't we?
CP I haven't spoken about going to meet friends at Jack's and many other places and people.
How I still value contact with my old university. I have been a friend of the Elphinstine Institute since it started and look forward to the North Atlantic Fiddlers Conference coming very soon
JC OK shall we stop there then if you think we've covered the ground?
CP Surely, yes. There is no one more appreciative of what my studies did for me, equipping me for a full and interesting life and able to play my part.
JC Thank you very much indeed.
CP Not at all, it's been a pleasure.
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