| Administrative History | Frances Allan was a former University of Aberdeen student |
| Description | Interview with Dr Frances Allan, MB ChB 1953, recorded on the 7 September 1990 by Colin McLaren
Transcription:
McL I'd like to begin by asking, Dr Allan, why did you first come to Aberdeen University?
FA Well I lived in Aberdeen and my mother was a local midwife and it was her great ambition I think to have her daughter a doctor. I had lots of ideas, I wanted to go on the stage, but "you get a degree at your back lassie and then you can think about these things" knowing fine well I would never go onto the stage. So that's how I got into medicine.
McL How many generations of your family had been to Aberdeen before?
FA My grandmother was, I suppose, what you would call a 'howdie' she was an untrained midwife … and my mother…
McL Can you spell 'howdie' for me? And you mother …?
FA She was trained she had done her training in Chesterfield. She did her general Chesterfield and her midwifery at Aberdeen. And she could tell some lovely stories about midwifery in Aberdeen at that time which would have been about, round about 1918.
McL Was Professor Stevenson still the lecturer in midwifery then or was it after his time?
FA I don't remember her mentioning that name. Oh gosh. I'm sorry I couldn't remember that much.
McL We'll stick with your career. Was there any encouragement from your school to come here? After all you could have taken a medical degree at a variety of different places?
FA I went to Central School and at that time it was all Jock Robertson's the Headmaster who said "you'll never become a doctor". If you weren't good at maths you were no good as far as Jock Robertson was concerned. He was a lovely old character. I mean most of my interests at that time when I was at school was art, writing and, as I say, I couldn't help being in every amateur dramatic that I could get into.
McL So when you came up to the University and it was foreordained that you would do medicine. How did you feel were you … I imagine you would have been as a pupil of the Central surrounded by your peers?
FA There was only one other girl in my year, June Milne, who went in as far as I can remember who went in for medicine. Most of the others were in Arts or Science courses. I will admit that the old man Robertson wasn't that far wrong because I wasn't awfully good at study. Again I spent most of my time in amateur dramatics I was in the University Dramatic Club, I was secretary one year I think it was about '49 or '50.
McL Perhaps we can come onto that side of your life as a student in a moment and still stick with the academic side. How would you evaluate the quality of medical teaching at the University at that time, in retrospect?
FA We had very good teaching I think. We had a very good general medical training there was some things that I think were taken for granted in medicine, the sexual side of medicine was absolutely taboo you know, whereas nowadays there is so much more training cause it's so vital in psychiatry and everything else. And, you know, you just didn't talk about how babies were made and that sort of thing. Somehow they got there and once they got there and you were trained obstetrics and there was nobody better than Dugald Baird. But Psychiatry too, looking back on it, there were big gaps, the psychotherapy and analytical side which just wasn't touched on at all really, in our training but. Otherwise I think we got a good general.
McL You mentioned Sir Dugald Baird and I wonder if you were at the time aware indeed, if his own researches had gone so far, as to establish him as a very distinctive figure..?
FA Everybody worshipped him, well most people did. Oh yes.
McL And yet some of his views were subsequently controversial over issues such as abortion for example. Did these arise as issues to be discussed by medical students in those days?
FA [Pause]. No, we didn't discuss abortions much. I did my first house job in Gynae at Aberdeen not with Dugald, but with George Milne in Woodend and there wasn't, I can't remember there being much about the ethical side. Except that I don't think Dugald Baird would have approved of abortion as late as they're doing it now. I remember him having very, very anxious thoughts about a girl that he was asked to abort at 20 weeks by the psychiatrist and he did that one in the end but he was very unhappy about doing that one as far on as 20 weeks. But the psychiatrist said she could commit suicide if you don't so, what could he do he had to?
McL Thinking back to the structure of your class your year, to what extend was there any age gap between those who either done Wartime Service or indeed National Service and the rest?
FA There was. At that time there was only 10% of the class from the schools all the other were ex-service.
McL How did this manifest itself in your relationships?
FA I don't think … well, I myself, I also tend to look up to the older person so one treated the ex-serviceman with a great deal of respect you know. One thing that some of them seemed to be at a disadvantage of they had missed out … their back gap and they had missed out the sciences. They were rusty and that first year in medicine when they were doing the sciences, chemistry and physics we'd just come fresh from school and they were struggling a bit. But from the point of view of the social level, I'm maybe not the person to ask because I was inclined to lead a very sheltered life and I didn't do much socialising with the others, so I really didn't know much about the ex-servicemen.
McL How would you say your position as a woman affected the way you were treated by staff or by students was there any discernible difference of attitudes?
FA I don't remember much. I think there was a feeling that certain of the Faculties didn't encourage woman for instance the surgery and obstetrics unless you were brilliant at either of those, then they weren't really very encouraging but, no I didn't feel at a disadvantage. Sometimes the fellows took the mickey out of you.
McL There is sort of a tradition of irreverence in the Medical Faculty between staff and students or students towards staff. Did this survive in your time, do you think?
FA When you say staff do you mean nursing staff or tutors or?
McL The students, for example, were in the past used to demonstrate at lectures and stamp and whistle and clap. Did this happen in your day?
FA No. I don't remember any of that.
McL And you mentioned that there were certain subjects which were treated with circumspection. Was this common do you think in most medical schools at the time?
FA Well I don't know. I don't know I think in Aberdeen - I didn't notice it until looking back on it - I mean you just didn't think about that we didn't get a training in this or that or the next thing. It was only looking back on it and from doing psychiatry later. 'You should have had more of that when I was at medical school' We didn't really get any psychology at all. Mind you with my opinion of psychology maybe it wasn't a good or bad thing but, no we should have had.
McL Did you have any classes from Rex Knight?
FA I can't remember any.
McL Where did you live when you were at University?
FA King Street. I lived at home.
McL Did you have a room of your own?
FA Yes
McL So you were able to study there or did you use the University facilities?
FA We used the University facilities too. The library and that but most of my studying was done at home.
McL Did the fact that you lived at home in anyway restrict you in making friends and making a circle of friends?
FA Oh no I had friends. Somehow or another we seemed to get on quite a bit with the foreign students. There were, I think, a quota of students from abroad I think it was the West Indies came in to medicine here. They came from Africa to other specialities but there was quite a lively West Indian group and they came to our house quite a bit. So that, I studied quite often with the West Indian lady.
McL Did you tend to make friends within the Faculty or did your friendships cross the Faculty border?
FA It crossed quite a bit because of my outside medicine interests.
McL Would you say you were exceptional in this or was it quite common for friendships to cross the Faculty border?
FA No I don't think it was exceptional.
McL Can we now turn to your theatrical and other interests. First of all what societies generally did you join?
FA The Dramatic and there was another one but I can't remember. We did play reading but we didn't perform.
McL The Mermaid was it?
FA Yes that's it. The Cairngorm, no it wasn't the Cairngorm club. The Lairig club where they used to go on weekends. That was the main ones, I think.
McL How would you characterise University drama or drama in this University when you came up?
FA … And the Student Shows I was in a couple of the student shows. We were quite good again the ex-service people, I think as far as I can remember, were very active.
McL In what sort of directions would you characterise it as being perhaps traditional in its interests? Or was there a desire to explore new drama?
FA I think … we did the White Devil. We did one of Saroyan's. Our Town is that Saroyan? Or is that, I forget. We did Our Town.
McL That's Thornton Wilder.
FA Yes. But we did one of Saroyan's and I can't remember the name of it. I don't know if they were public productions. I'm getting confused now because I was also in Unity Theatre and the Shakespeare Society. They wouldn't have done Wilder of course. So I can't remember if the two American ones were Unity Theatre or not.
McL And were the play readings, new plays or classic?
FA That was a mixture, yes. It might be Ibsen or ….
McL How strong was the interest in drama, you mentioned that the ex-servicemen were interested. How about woman generally were they keen to take part or was there ever ..?
FA Yes I think there was quite a good. I sure we had quite a big membership.
McL And the Student Show was that something different from ordinary drama activities? Was it broader in its appeal?
FA Yes, well of course you did that in the Spring holiday so it was a four-week, concentrated rehearsal. Tremendous fun.
McL Who were the leading lights of the show at that time?
FA Vincent Park. You know I'm annoyed with myself I'd one of the books to take with me and photographs and I've left them at home. Oh I can't remember.
McL Do you remember who produced them, were they professionally produced or ..?
FA A M Shinnie did one, now was that Hooray for What?. I remember A M Shinnie doing one. Vincent Park did one of the two that I was in. They were very crafty when they put the poster up in front of His Majesty they put 'directed by Vincent Price' and you know Vincent Park, good publicity. I'll tell you another person who was in them who's name is quite often on television, although he doesn't appear in things, Allan Patillo who's in some of the shows and he's involved in the puppet thing, the space puppet thing [Thunderbirds].
McL No I'm afraid you've ...
FA His name was also in a play that was on the television the other day although its been made some time ago. Confessions?. But he's involved in the production side of these things.
McL Was the University drama a sort of a forcing ground for aspiring actors, dramatists and producers?
FA I think there were one or two.
McL Do you recall people of that generation? Was Charles Barron one of your generation?
FA I don't remember him. Ian Cuthbertson of course. Gosh, I can't remember any of the others. I believe Dorothea Gill went down to television for a time, but I don't know if she stayed in it.
McL What about other recreations, you mentioned various societies you belonged to and particularly your theatrical interests …
Side 2
FA … mainly reading or walking.
McL Did the cinema play a large part in student recreation?
FA No. Our family used to go - of course, we didn't have television in those days - our family used to go to the cinema once a week. But, no I didn't get involved with students. I wasn't one who went to hops and things like that. I wasn't one for dancing!
McL You mentioned earlier that there were certain issues that didn't seem to crop up in the discussions within the medical faculty, various ethical considerations, but either in the theatrical side of student life, or more generally in discussions with your friends, to what extent were you politically conscious, politically aware, in the very broadest sense of the word?
FA Well, I forgot about that. I think I joined the Socialist Club for one year, but I wasn't really awfully interested.
McL Would you say that was characteristic of the majority of the students?
FA Yes, I don't' remember us discussing politics much. Apart from the West Indians, of course, because there was a certain … you see we were terribly innocent in that respect too, we just didn't think there was such a thing as a colour bar and they would say, "well you know, you just don't know until you've got a black skin and try and get a landlady." We would discuss things like that but from the point of view of politics, at that time I don't' think. My family were all very Labour minded and in the family we discussed politics to a certain extent but I don't think I did much in the way of political discussion.
McL Did you form from talking to the West Indians any impression that they perhaps lived together in a particular area or kept together?
FA I don't recall that.
McL We've not had the chance, I'm afraid, to interview anyone who came through the University in that way so I'm just curious to know what sort of time they had.
FA It seemed that they had difficulty finding accommodation. It really opened our eyes when my parents couldn't believe it - "that's impossible" but Wilma used to say "it's true, we do have difficulty finding people to take us in" and Ronnie Brown who came from Barbados, he lived - I lived near St Machar's Drive and came into University everyday on the tram. Ronnie lived out at the Bridge of Don so we used to meet up and walk up to Marischal College together and you'd have a little knot of kids at the back of you "look at her, going out with a darkie." You know, it shook me. I didn't think that that would - of course kids are funny, little children are funny that way. It had never occurred to me that anyone would take any notice. One of my other friends from Jamaica, Ena, she was very outspoken on the subject.
McL May I ask you how you managed financially because you were living at home. Were you given an allowance?
FA Well I got a full grant, you know if your parents - I had a certain amount, not very much in Carnegie, it was the local authority grant and my parents financed me and they really worked hard to put me to university.
McL From your grant did you have, as it were, spending money of your own which you sort of administered yourself?
FA No, I just said to my parents I need this book or that book, you know. They were very very good, I didn't really appreciate how good they'd been.
McL Had you brothers and sisters?
FA No, no, I was an only child, spoilt rotten.
McL Looking back, how would you characterise the effectiveness of the - you've spoken already about the quality of the medical education out here - but thinking now of your professional career and of the various issues that you faced in medicine and in psychiatry, what would you feel overall was the degree of success of preparation that you received at university?
FA I think we had a very good grounding. It stood me in good stead when I went to other areas. I went from here to - I worked in Yorkshire for a bit, Glasgow, a long time in Liverpool and I think the training we had here was every bit as good if not better than, at that time, they had in Liverpool. There were things that I could talk about in the English universities that they hadn't had.
McL And the overall, I'm reluctant to use the phrase, but did the "character forming" experience. How would you rate that?
FA There were other things that we didn't get here because of the numbers, and the small size of the hospital. Things like surgical experience. For instance, you were pretty well at the end of your - I was at the end of my six months gynie before I was allowed to do a D & C sort of thing you know.
McL Sorry, what's a D & C?
FA So we are over protected I think to a certain extent.
McL What is a D & C?
FA Dilatation and Curretage. It's a very simple thing. Yes, we were over protected in a way, or else not given enough experience in some things because there was so many of us trying to get experience in a small place. We didn't get any experience of General Practice, you know, things like that which later on was provided.
McL And you did me give the impression, I think, earlier on of having led a rather sheltered existence at home. Would you say by the end of your time here that this had broadened or did this come later when you actually went out and worked?
FA It came later, yes. Because as I said my first house job was in gynie and I learned an awful lot in gynie that I hadn't a clue about before because of the sheltered existence.
McL Thank you very much indeed.
END OF INTERVIEW
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