| Description | Interview with Mr William Georgeson recorded on 5 September 1986 by Jennifer Carter.
Transcript of Interview :
I hope I am talking audibly this time with Mr. William Georgeson .
C Mr Georgeson you were saying your parents were school teachers, is that right?
G Both school teachers yes, and both my sisters.
C Were also teachers? And you are a strong Aberdeen family I gather, is that right?
G My father was born in Wick, the Georgesons come from further north.
C But your father and mother were both Aberdeen graduates like you yourself and others of your family?
G Quite a few others, yes.
C So Aberdeen was your natural choice of University in the first instance though you later went onto Oxford. So you came to Aberdeen at what age Mr. Georgeson?
G At what age, I was born in Aberdeen.
C Sorry I meant the University, you came up as what a 17 year old?
G 17 yes.
C And what did you choose to study or wasn't it really a choice, you just did a straight forward laid down MA did you?
G I did Honours Classics.
C Latin and Greek first year and what else?
G I did English and another subject. We had to take two subjects outside our Honours curriculum, I took three. I took Natural Philosophy and Zoology in my second year, that was partly because by that time I was considering sitting the Civil Service examination, and I wanted to know something of science, but also partly because I just wanted to know something of science.
C But you were a classicist and took honours in Classics?
G Yes.
C Who would have been the teachers who influenced you most, was it Professor Souter then?
G Professor Souter was what was delinquently called Humanity, and Professor Harrower.
C And were they the people who you saw most of, or were you taught also by assistants or lecturers?
G Assistants, and lecturers, I wouldn't say we saw more of one than the other, the Professors took some of the classes, but assistants took others.
C Was the relationship with students fairly formal, for example, did you see your teachers at all socially or did you simply see them in the classroom and was there some distance between you as it were?
G Professor Souter invited the fourth year Honours students to a party at his house, which is the only time I was ever, I was in Professor Harrowers house on business once, but it was the only time I was ever in any house socially.
C And was that the norm at the time?
G Other Professors, I don't know, but I think it probably was.
C Probably was yes. And you accepted it as a student as the normal way of the world, it wasn't considered that the Professors were being very distant or …?
G I did not think that, no I didn't. They called us men or Mr.
C And so that was a change from school I imagine?
G Oh yes!
C Where you were called, what by your first name?
G Surname, oh one or two of the teachers in the Sixth got onto Christian name terms with the pupil, because the class was very small by the time it got to the Sixth.
C And how much teaching contact was there, the Professors and lecturers lectured, did you also have small group of personal teaching?
G We did not have very much of that, I don't remember any of that, I don't remember anything in the way of seminars at all.
C What about your written work, if you gave in a piece of Greek poetry or Latin composition, did you get it back with comments written on it?
G Oh yes.
C Or did you meet to discuss it?
G I don't remember that we met to discuss it at all, my memory may be at fault but I don't remember doing that.
C Was the class in Latin and Greek one of the larger classes in the University, or a small one even then?
G Do you mean those who were taking that as Honours? Well, I was in quite a big class, but there were quite a number of people who took Latin for a pass.
C Yes I see but …?
G Not so many who took Greek for a pass.
C But relatively few of those went forward for Honours is that right?
G Yes, about how many of your contemporaries when you graduated
G Do you mean in Honours Classics?
C Yes. You can almost count them?
G Oh yes, there were five of us I think that was all.
C That's all, so you knew them all well?
G Very well, yes.
C Did you as it were live in each others company all the time you were undergraduates, you knew each other very well socially?
G Oh yes.
C And did you have a lot of other contacts in the University particularly because you were a local boy from a local school and so on did you have many friends in other classes?
G Not a great many, my main other interest was the Officers Training Corps
C I was just pausing in case it came down crash on top of you but I think it is safe, so you were an OTC chap, and that was how time consuming activity … you went what one evening a week?
G Not very, no I think we had to do a certain number of parades within the year and then there was a camp fortnight, fortnight's camp in summer.
C Why did you join that? Because you had an interest in outdoor pursuits or the glamour of the uniform or the social life or what was the attraction?
G I'm not very sure! I think I was attracted by the idea of going to the camp, the OTC camp
C And did you keep up any subsequent interests in things military, were you a Territorial afterwards or anything?
G No I joined the OTC in Oxford later
C So it wasn't a decision, for example, based on any long term consideration that the country might have to go to war again one day or anything like that?
G I am afraid not!
C No it was a fun thing. Leading on from that could I ask you I mean, as an undergraduate how conscious were you of world events and trends and so on. There we were in the middle of the 20s?
G In the 20s. I conducted a tram car of the general strike.
C Well that was one of the specific things I was going to ask, memories of the general strike. Would you have described yourself as a conservative student?
G I was, I considered myself a liberal
C A Liberal?
G I supported the Liberals at the October election, wore their colours.
C But nevertheless when the General Strike came you were one of those who volunteered to as we would now say be a strike breaker?
G Yes - that's an emotive expression, of course.
C It was intended to be! Was that the general view among students in Aberdeen then, I mean were you taking a usual or an unusual attitude?
G Quite usual I think, a number of students did various jobs, partly perhaps as a lark but, I think, partly because one felt that the General Strike as a political weapon was to be resisted.
C In fact you took the line that it was a kind of unconstitutional action?
G Yes.
C I wondered about the larky element though. I mean one often when reading about the General Strike hears that many young men who conducted trams and things, really did it as a peace of fun, more than a piece of politics.
G Partly yes, but I think I did understand the issues involved. It appeared that it was an attempt to subvert parliamentary government by establishing the principle that parliament could take orders from the TUC.
C Were these issues discussed a great deal amongst students, I mean, for example, in the debater, or casually?
G I don't think they were very much.
C So you would not have described the student population as being deeply involved in politics in the normal way?
G No.
C No, but the strike proved an exception and people took up distinct stances then?
G Yes of course, ... mixed as I have said.
C While not wanting to go too far away from the affairs of the University, I mean, do you remember any particular episodes of the strike in Aberdeen? I gather there was a certain amount of minor violence in Union Street, and was there one baton charge or something?
G Yes I didn't see it. I don't think there was very much in Aberdeen, by all accounts not as there was in London.
C How did that experience impress you? I mean, did it strengthen the attitudes you had begun with or did it make you change your mind at all?
G No particular effect.
C No, no effect particularly, interesting. Coming back then, to the life of the undergraduate student, you lived at home did you?
G Yes.
C And came down to take your classes in King's?
G Yes.
C What sort of, how did one spend ones day. The classes were both morning and afternoon or only in the morning?
G Most of mine were in the morning, but in my second year when, as I said, I took Natural Philosophy and Zoology these were in the afternoon at Marischal. All the classes in the main subjects were in King's of course.
C One's heard it said that the two colleges, Marischal and King's, were very separate in those days, was that your experience?
G Yes, there was quite a bit of rivalry but of course any Arts student, based mainly at King's who took scientific subject, as I did, would go to Marischal for it.
C So you had to cross the frontier then?
G We wore the red gown in King's but not in Marischal.
C Now that's interesting, the togas had come back after the war by your time?
G They came back shortly before, a few years of popularity but they were not worn at Marischal.
C Why was that do you know, it was just a tradition?
G I imagine, because they never wore one by the Marischal college students and our students who took classes at Marischal didn't wear them at Marischal
C So if you went down to a class in Marischal, would you wear your toga to mark you as a King's man?
G No
C You'd leave it behind. What about student societies and so on, did they meet at King's or at Marischal or at both or?
G Marischal I think always.
C Were you a participant?
G The only one that I was a member of was the Classical Society I think it was, or maybe associated society, which met weekly, I think.
C And was that an interesting, formative experience or?
G Well, one exchanged views, one gave papers to it, which looking back were extremely juvenile!
C Nevertheless good practise for later years?
G Yes
C Apart from the OTC did you have a lot of social life at University or was it a fairly quiet period?
G I didn't very much, I think it was much better for people who did not live at home in that way you know.
C Why because home was strict or?
G No, no, but their homes, but everyone was living with ones own family circle.
C And still treated perhaps very much as a, well I was going to say as a schoolboy, that's probably not true, but …?
G No, there was none of that I think, but the difference was very noticeable when I went to Oxford, where one lived in College.
C And that you felt was what a much more stimulating or socially exciting experience?
G Yes.
C Yes I can imagine that.
G It was all for the good, that they live in halls of residence now, it is much better system I think.
C What about the money side, you told me earlier that you had been a bursar and the £40 was helpful.
G Well £40 to the good, yes
C Did you feel poor as a student?
G No, no.
C What sort of thing did one spend one's money on, theatre, the cinema, books?
G I didn't spend very much money personally.
C You were dependent on your parents, were you, for your upkeep?
G Yes.
C Was there a strong sense among yourself and fellow students of gradations of wealth of rich and poor, were you conscious of who were the better off students and who were the poorer ones, did it matter at all, was it an issue in any way?
G I think not at all.
C People were taken, what, absolutely at face value?
G Oh I think so yes.
C And presumably no students had really extravagant tastes, like running cars or anything like that?
G I don't remember any who ran cars.
C It is difficult, in a way, to compare what it must have been like in the 20s with students on grants for instance. I mean I presume all of you really depended upon your parents more or less, and did not take paid work, would that be right?
G I think nobody ever took paid work.
C Nobody took paid work at all you recollect?
G I don't, … I never knew of anybody who did.
C Presumably because among other things, it would have been very hard to find then?
G It probably would have been yes, but one was supposed to be attending to ones studies and other activities too of course.
C What things like the OTC?
G Yes, some had no other interests but their studies, no doubt.
C You were not one of those?
G Not quite, no!
C The summer vacation was very long wasn't it in your day?
G Yes
C Did you not finish in March or something?
G Oh no no no, that was earlier.
C You were working to the three term principle like we do nowadays?
G Oh yes.
C So what happened in the summer, was it a holiday or did you do academic work or?
G Speaking personally I spent a month with my parents in the country, I imagine I must have done a bit of studying during the rest of the long break.
C Did you always go to the same place in the country?
G No
C You just went off somewhere in the country for a holiday, but always locally in the North East of Scotland was it?
G Well, I think we went to Aberfeldy, was perhaps the furthest.
C You mentioned that you had started to have thoughts about a career in the Civil Service, was that a common ambition among your contemporaries at University or were you unusual in thinking ahead like that?
G Well I wouldn't say either, it wasn't common, it wasn't considered exceptional, there were one or two others about my time, who took the same examination.
C You already sat once at Aberdeen before you moved onto Oxford?
G I took the degree … - not the Civil Service, no.
C No, you were merely preparing for it?
G But I had that in mind, I thought, I found out what was required and there was a paper in rather simple science, I mean for people whose main subject was not science, of course.
C Was any effort made, either by the University or by private coaches, to prepare students at this University for the Civil Service exams?
G Not specifically, we - well there was one man, Lord Meston, who had been in India, gave us a talk. The University did not, no. Though may have been private coaching - crammers, no doubt there were.
C How did Lord Meston become involved, was he invited to come and give a talk or …?
G He'd been quite a eminent Indian Civil Servant, and he was boosting the Indian Civil Service
C He came as a sort of recruiter did he?
G More or less, yes, people he was speaking to were not of that age yet but he wanted to interest them in the Indian Civil Service.
C Yes, is that what turned your mind towards it or had you already thought about it before Meston came?
G No on the contrary I went to the speech because I was thinking about it.
C I wonder under what auspices he spoke, was he simply invited as a distinguished graduate or …?
G I don't know, I probably did know at the time, if I did I don't remember who invited him, I have no doubt this wasn't merely as a distinguished graduate, it was to interest students in the Indian Civil Service as a possible career.
C Was there a Careers Service in those days?
G I don't think so, no.
C I would have been surprised to hear that there was yes. But when you yourself graduated instead of seeking a career in the Civil Service or anywhere else, you went onto Oxford, is that right?
G Yes, I was, in fact, too young to sit the examination. I could sit it after one year, or after two, but when I got a scholarship at Oxford, it was made clear to me that I must plan my career so as to take in the degree and so I must not sit the Civil Service exam until after two years and I must take a degree in two years!
C I see. You sat a further examination did you for Oxford entrance?
G A scholarship examination, yes
C When did you sit that, before graduating or after?
G No, in June 1927. Our graduation was in March at that time.
C And what persuaded you to sit the Oxford scholarship exam, did your teachers at the University suggest it?
G Well my father had done exactly the same thing before me.
C I see
G And Professor Harrower was an Oxford man and Pembroke College Oxford, and that is the one I sat, because it was the only scholarship examination that was after my degree examination in Aberdeen.
C As casual as that?
G It settled it quite definite, my father sat it for the same reason and for all I know Professor Harrower sat it for the same reason. But I don't know about him.
C What did you study when you went up to Oxford?
G Greats. (Should I amplify that for the …?)
C No, I think we know. So you did, in effect, another classical degree?
G Yes, but I didn't do the first two years which would have been Latin and Greek literature.
C You went straight onto the Philosophy and the other parts of Greats?
G Yes.
C That was, you know from the modern point of view in a way a slightly strange ste,p wasn't it, to take a second first degree but I gather in the 20s it was quite common was it?
G Not common, but every few years there was somebody who did it, and well, my father was keen on it, he thought I was up to it, and my professors.
C What about the financial aspects, because that was a full two further years of study, or did the scholarship cover that completely?
G No, my scholarship was a £100 and I think I got something else from Aberdeen, there was some fund in Aberdeen, I got them to give me another £100, and with care, that covered all my expenses in Oxford
C I see £200 a year
G My parents kept me during the vacations, and they paid the railway journeys, I don't think my scholarship covered that. There, by the way, there was quite a clear difference as well.
C You found it an interesting contrast, from that point of view, I suppose, with Aberdeen?
G Yes.
C And how did you react to it yourself, you know, looking back on your first University when you went into your second one. How did you react, for example, to the strong social differentiation which you noticed?
G Well I wouldn't quite say social differentiation, there was no snobbery, but there were people who could afford things I and […] others couldn't, perhaps especially so in my college, which was not a learner college, or a students college. Not a reading man's college so much though! (Though quite lot of rich men who were rather idle.) I thought that the association with these people whose view of life was quite different from mine, did me good - I hope it did them good!
C How would you characterise Aberdeen University in your day? From what you described to me it sounds like a fairly quiet, hard working, rather plain University experience. Is that a fair characterisation or would you put it differently?
G It was hard working, of course, for some people. I imagine that the pass degree wasn't too difficult to get, it was a good deal easier in Oxford though in those days. On the other hand the Honours degree was more difficult at Oxford than at Aberdeen.
C But Aberdeen nevertheless required you to apply yourself pretty well?
G Oh yes.
C I was wondering if there was another difference. I mean I maybe quite wrong but, for example, how did people speak in Aberdeen as students in those days, did strong local accents prevail?
G Fairly yes, I think that mine perhaps became a little stronger when I went to the University, and then it changed back again when I went to Oxford.
C And were you very conscious as a student here of people coming from different parts of Scotland? For example, were there very clear Highlanders and Islanders as distinct from Aberdeen men and so on?
G I don't remember being very greatly conscious of that, I don't remember the very Highland accents for example
C No I wondered about that, Gaelic speaking people for example?
G Oh I didn't meet any as far as, … oh there were some, there was a society called an Comann Ceilteach. which I suppose does not need to be translated, but they were a mystery to the rest of us.
C Yes interesting. You mentioned a Rectorial election, which one was that? You said you wore the Liberal colours for the Rectorial …?
G Oh it would have been about 1926, and they were entirely political in those days.
C Oh that's interesting, I hadn't appreciated that.
G The political party put up candidates, that's why I said I wore the Liberal colours, yes there were always three candidates, the conservative always got in by a thumping majority, we knew he would. Who it was I have no idea …
C Well, I ought to have the information to hand but I haven't, at any rate your man lost eh?
G Oh yes, handsomely!
C But would it also be true that, though the Rectorials were in that sense political, the students were not, in between Rectorial contests, very political?
G I don't think they were, no. I think there were probably Political Associations, I am not even quite sure if there were. I didn't belong to one, but they were not very important.
C Was the Rectorial accompanied by a great deal of fun and games for example, was there a great Rectorial fight and all this kind of thing or not?
G Yes there was, sort of …
C But you were not a participant?
G I didn't, I was under the weather that day. Actually I wish I had gone for the experience. My mother influenced me not to, she thought I was too ill.
C Is there anything else about your student days that we haven't happened to touch on, that you would like to put on record?
G I think you have been pretty thorough. I mean … of course personalities, some of the staff.
C Yes. Any that stand out still in your memory, for whatever reasons - good or ill?
G Natural Philosophy, under G.P. Thomson.
C He was a great name in those days wasn't he?
G He was only beginning in those days and I don't know that we quite knew who we had in our midst. I mean, I didn't. He soon left us. He married the Principal's daughter
C And that was which Principal? It would have been Adam Smith still would it? How did he impress you as a student or perhaps he never sort of crossed your horizon, I don't know?
G Well now, I had forgotten. There was a party at his house.
C Oh that's interesting, a student's party?
G Yes, for the Presidents and Secretaries of Student societies. I was President […] on the Classical Society that year, and I was in his house for that, but I don't think, he didn't invite students in batches, I am pretty sure he didn't. He was very well liked, a handsome man and, I think, quite a popular man.
C He was a churchman of course, were you a church or chapel goer? I mean did you come to King's chapel at all, anything like that?
G Sometime, but only on special occasions, I think. The OTC had a chapel …
C Parade?
G A Church Parade yes, but it was rather a long way. I lived 2½ miles away
C How did you get to University then?
G Walked.
C You walked 2½ miles in and back again. People did. Did that mean you normally spent the whole day at King's? In other words you brought a piece for lunch, or you got lunch?
G No I went home for lunch.
C Goodness, so that's … oh but you didn't then come back in the afternoon.
G When I was going to Marischal in the afternoon, I generally cycled.
C Ah I see.
G But I tell you, it was a bit of a rush I remember, if there was a class in Kings from 12-1, whether there was in that year I don't remember.
C So that was a 5 mile walk plus a possible 5 mile cycle ride per day.
G No, I would cycle to Kings when I was doing that
C Among your contemporaries of students, are there any who stood out in your mind as striking personalities or …?
G Well one not quite my contemporary, a few years before, Eric Linklater
C I wondered if you knew him at all.
G Not very well. I knew him more because he was an officer in the OTC. And a contemporary of mine, whom I have since got to know fairly well, was Catherine Gavin.
C Oh yes the novelist.
G No others stand out. A good many of my contemporaries are dead.
C That is sad of course, yes. Well it has been extremely interesting talking to you. Thank you very much indeed.
End of Interview
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