| Description | Interview with Joanna Cram who has just graduated MA First Class Honours in Sociology. The date is the 9 of July 2003. The interviewer is Jennifer Carter.
Transcription :
JC So, lovely to meet you Joanna and congratulations on that excellent degree.
JCram Thank you very much.
JC You told me I think that you come from Glasgow is that right?
JCram Yes.
JC So what drew you all the way to Aberdeen?
JCram I'm not really sure. I had a few options open to me. I'd been given conditionals and I had to get my Highers to get in. Aberdeen just kind of appealed to me. I just thought one day, yes, why not and I felt ready to come to university. I came up to the Open Day and it was gorgeous sunshine and I had a very nice person taking me round who was really encouraging and it just kind of made the decision for me.
JC That's great. That was a fairly early choice wasn't it in the sense you came straight from fifth year. Nowadays it's fairly unusual isn't it?
JCram It was quite scary. I wasn't given too much encouragement from my teachers at school because they tend to prefer pupils to stay on for sixth year but I felt sixth year wasn't going to be much use for me because I knew I wasn't going to be hockey captain or prefect at that time so I just thought I want to go and do something, I don't want to waste the next year. I had thought about going over to Canada but it was just all a bit too scary at that age, I was only just seventeen, kind of sixteen going on seventeen, and then I came up here five days after my seventeenth birthday. But I was glad I made the choice. I definitely felt ready to come and meet new people and things so yes it's worked out well.
JC And school was?
JCram It was the Glasgow Academy.
JC Yes, a highly academic school.
JCram Yes it was. I got all ones in my Standard Grades so that was good and then the Highers I got mixed, I got two As, a B and two Cs for my highers.
JC So not brilliant but good enough.
JCram Yes, exactly. I was probably kind of slackening off at that stage going through my wilder years.
JC Right, you were doing your wild child bit then were you?
JCram Yes.
JC And why Sociology? It's nowadays not that unusual a choice but it's not one of the absolute first things one thinks of.
JCram Well there's a funny story to that one. I came up and met my supervisor, a very eccentric man, Chris Wright, Dr Chris Wright with the Sociology Department. He's very funny. I didn't realise that at Aberdeen you had to do a certain number of credits each term. But I'd been down for Psychology and French initially and he said right Joanna what we're going to do, we need to get more credits for you here, you need to do more subjects. And I thought God I hadn't thought about this, what am I going to do. And he started reeling off a few other things like French Literature which I was interested in anyway with my French and then he just said what about Sociology? If you're interested in Psychology, Sociology might be up your alleyway. And I'd never even heard of it before. He just said well here's what it's about and I thought yes, that sounds OK. I started it and I loved it from the first day I started it. It just kind of grabbed me, it was my favourite subject all the way through.
JC It's funny how often that happens isn't it.
JCram Yes.
JC So Chris Wright was your adviser of studies?
JCram He was in first and second year, yes.
JC And then you moved on to an Honours adviser the year after?
JCram Yes.
JC Did that system work well for you? It sounds as if it made a very important choice for you at the beginning.
JCram It did. I liked having Chris Wright. In my third and fourth year my supervisor didn't really play any part but I had a supervisor for my thesis and I saw him every week. So I counted him more as a person I would go to with any problems.
JC He was within the Sociology department
JCram Yes. The Sociology department, I couldn't really praise it more. It was brilliant. I felt like there was always plenty of attention, if I needed any personal help it was always there and it was just a very friendly thing. I don't want to say compared to another department I've been in but it was much more …
JC Oh do make the comparison.
JCram Well I was just going to say because I did Psychology and there is so many people doing it and I felt in Psychology you really didn't get any private attention there, it was very difficult.
JC It's always been a problem in Psychology with that huge first year.
JCram Exactly, but yes I just found with Sociology I could go in and speak to, like anyone was willing to help even if they weren't my tutor. It was just a really good atmosphere in there which kind of helped me along.
JC About how many people were there in the two Honours classes, Junior and Senior Honours?
JCram I think there was about sixty to eighty but I could be completely wrong with that because we were all split into lots of different classes, your Joint Honours, your combined, your single, so …
JC And according to what options you had chosen?
JCram Yes.
JC So you never saw the whole class together?
JCram Yes. But I think there was about four different classes and I'm sure there was about twenty in each so I think it is about sixty to eighty but I could be wrong.
JC So academically things went smoothly for you, you didn't have any setbacks?
JCram No, not really. I didn't start off amazingly at Uni, I mean I've never been an excelling student. I was never really intelligent at school and I know my teachers wouldn't have predicted me to get a first at all but I just kind of got to my third year and focussed on it and just decided I could do this. But I mean before that my grades were kind of 2:2s and a few 2:1s here and there. I started off third year in my Junior Honours year with 2:2s as well but I just, I don't know, decided to turn it around. I don't know, I just focussed. As I say I've never excelled in intelligence or anything but when I want something I do tend to just go for it and hopefully get it.
JC What kind of Sociology has interested you? I mean I speak as a non-expert, I'm a historian so I don't know the ins and outs but for instance your thesis was on what?
JCram My thesis was on male friendships and I loved it. It was brilliant. Just really enjoyed it so I guess what interested me most is doing ethnography. I really enjoy interacting with people and finding out things from their perspective and trying to understand more from their point of view. So yes anything to do with socialisation, I just like you know all the kind of things that bring people together in society and what makes them work.
JC And in your male friendships thing did you interview people or was it all done from the literature?
JCram I had a focus group of six boys who happened to be actually a group of our friends and one of them was my partner but that made really interesting material for kind of ethical decisions that I had to make.
JC Indeed. Who you spoke to about what and what you played back to them.
JCram Exactly, but it was just really interesting. It ended up being kind of two years of personal observation because I'd done a pilot study and interviews just weren't working because I was such close friends with them. When I put on the interview tape it was just really weird and it didn't work like that at all. I was getting much more information when I wasn't recording them and when they weren't aware that I was kind of thinking about it. Yes, it worked out really well. They were very supportive and just went far with it.
JC And you're still with your partner are you?
JCram Yes. He hasn't read the dissertation though.
JC So as I said the academic side obviously has gone swimmingly for you but you told me you'd come up pretty young. I mean what was it like socialising in Aberdeen, I mean getting into the system and where did you live and so on for example.
JCram Well I came up and I stayed in Johnston Halls. I actually had quite a rocky start because I was going out with another person at the time from school and we broke up straight away at the beginning of term.
JC Day one.
JCram Yes and that was a bit devastating but anyway it was good because as I say I was so young and all my family and friends weren't with me but I was really kind of thrown in at the deep end which for me is always the better thing because then I really kind of go for it and get my act together. So yes I just kind of got myself speaking to everyone in halls and the first thing I did was got myself a job in the canteen at Johnston because I thought how am I going to meet everyone where I have to speak to them because you know I didn't want to be all shy and things so I thought right I'll just go for it because this job had been advertised and it was good money and I needed the money anyway. So yes I started working there and that just got me speaking to everyone and within a few weeks I knew everyone's face and they knew mine and we had a good giggle about me being the dinner lady and yes just kind of threw myself in there. I joined clubsin first year. I didn't attend so many of them because I was really busy kind of meeting people from halls and doing things with them, but yes I got more active towards the later years.
JC What sort of clubs and societies did you branch out into because it's always interesting to trace how people build up their network?
JCram Well I started off in first year I joined the swimming, the Lairig club and the horse riding club and I went a few times to each thing but as I say I was too busy. Then in second year I was doing the gold membership at the gym and I was going to the gym a lot and meeting people there.
JC What's the gold membership?
JCram You pay for a year and basically you don't ever pay again. You can just go and use all the facilities and do all the different classes and things. It works out really well. And that was good and then I just kind of third and forth year I decided to join the Ski and Snowboarding club and the surfing club as well and got really into the surfing club. But I was a complete beginner and just absolutely loved it.
JC In Aberdeen?
JCram Yes. Cold but lovely. I met some really great people. It was really refreshing to meet some really different people. We went to a lot of competitions and different kind of more trips we went on together. It was just really exciting, really good.
JC So those particular societies have been part of your network. Did you make a lot of friends in the department, in Sociology or was that not a major place for …?
JCram We were all friends in the lectures and things but I have to say we didn't hang out so much as friends. I mean I could always phone them if anything was wrong or they could phone me if anything was wrong or they were worried but I would say socialising didn't really occur with them so much. Not because we didn't like each other we got on really well but it just so happened that we had different friends outside of the course that we would socialise more with.
JC Then after your first year in Johnston did you take friends from there on with you as it were?
JCram Yes, well one of the girls that was on my floor is my best friend. We lived together all through university after first year, so yes.
JC Where did you move to?
JCram We moved just down the road to Linksfield Road near the golf course. It was lovely.
JC Had you got a flat?
JCram Yes, my parents bought a flat there and they decided they would rent it out and then sell it when I left and that worked out really well.
JC And it's work out well financially for them as well?
JCram Yes. Basically it was meaning they weren't having to pay for me while I was up here so it was really good. I would definitely recommend it for anyone.
JC So you were the landlord as it were and you took your friend in as a tenant?
JCram Basically, my mum was the official landlord but I was kind of acting landlord and sorted out the bills and things, the non-fun bits. But yes it was fine.
JC And that worked out splendidly?
JCram Yes.
JC You learned to look after yourself very quickly.
JCram Yes, definitely. Kept quite a clean flat for students I have to say.
JC Has that road become very much a student area now?
JCram I think there was quite a mix. A lot of our friends lived on that road but the complex I was in was a new complex at the bottom and that's a real mix of families and students. But I quite like that because I felt …
JC Did that create any tension between you and your friends because one sometimes hears that there's a bit of sort of anti-student feeling.
JCram It was more younger families so it tended to be OK. There was one section that was a Japanese old-age home. I'm not totally sure but I mean they're fine as well, I've never had any complaints from them, so it's fine, yes.
JC So where you lived worked out splendidly?
JCram Yes, it was lovely. Not a far walk and everything.
JC You mentioned that in first year you were a bit short of cash, could I ask how you managed to finance yourself through university? Did you have to take a lot of part-time work?
JCram Yes. I worked in Crombie Johnston for the first two years and then I had a job in the Mortgage Call Centre Company. Then what did I do. I joined a PR company and worked for them for the last couple of years and it worked out well.
JC What sort of time commitment did that involve you in?
JCram I was very lucky because most of the jobs I chose were only a couple of hours in the evening. So I was always kind of very aware of that. I didn't want a job to take over my time at uni so you know it was usually kind of five to seven in the evening, just a couple of hours, but usually quite good pay or commission pay and it worked out fine. So the PRing was always fitted around my time, like I would say when I wanted shifts. I was lucky.
JC So you were really quite a good chooser of work and I suppose that is one of the pluses at Aberdeen that there are always jobs on offer aren't there?
JCram Yes definitely. The Job Centre is really good for finding things. It's really really helpful.
JC It worked well for you did it?
JCram Yes definitely.
JC So how have you come out at the end of the day, you've had four years, are you carrying much debt like many people?
JCram I'm not too bad. I'm not in an overdraft but I do have two student loans but I'm planning to pay them off quite quickly with these cookery jobs that I want to do. I don't feel in a huge amount of debt. I'd rather not have the loans obviously but I'm quite organised with my money. I've always been like that.
JC Could I ask the intrusive question how big a debt do the two loans add up to, because people have such varying amounts. You should hear some of the medic ones.
JCram I know the medic ones, they get a lot more though on their loans so I think that's why. My first loan was I think around £1700 and my next one £1400.
JC So that's the two you have to pay off when you're working?
JCram Yes.
JC So that's not nearly as bad as some but it is a bit daunting isn't it.
JCram Yes. I'm just planning on putting money aside so I can pay it off in bulk quite quickly.
JC As quickly as you can.
JCram Just get it done. And be debt free hopefully
JC Until you buy a property.
JCram Exactly.
JC OK, well that's all been very interesting. I wonder if I could ask you some slightly more sort of general questions about how you've seen things at the university, not so much, or not entirely based on your personal experience, but things like for example has the system worked well for you in terms of computing provision, library provision, that sort of thing?
JCram The library was brilliant. I felt everything was quite useful and there was plenty of books. Inter Library Loans was a bit of a problem but every library is going to have that. It's difficult to get books from other areas of the country when they're on high demand. But yes the library staff were always willing to help, that was fine. And computing facilities, I never had a problem with them no.
JC Were you computer literate when you came up or did you have to learn here?
JCram Not really. We were given a beginners course though when we first came up. I can't remember what it was called. I think it was Academic Skills or something in first year and they kind of talk you through the various things and they gave us a handbook which I think I lost quite soon after. But I did learn some stuff that definitely got me kind of working my emails and things and once you've got the basic skills you can go on. And they've got a Help Desk in Edward Wright, which is brilliant.
JC Yes, it's been useful to you has it?
JCram Yes, they help you with everything. Because I was quite scared of computers but no I'm fairly computer literate now.
JC Do you email a lot to communicate?
JCram Yes definitely. At university it's kind of, with my tutors as well it's really good to have the email. It keeps me in contact with a lot of people. It's good to get like academic contacts through it as well. Because you know if you send an email down to, I don't know, Bristol University and its got the @abdn.ac.uk they're much more likely to look at it and reply.
JC Do you and all your friends have mobile phones now?
JCram Yes.
JC Did you have one right through university?
JCram Yes I did. I hate to admit that.
JC Why?
JCram I don't like all the modern technology but yes I did. Just because there was not really any other way mum and dad could keep in touch with me.
JC So they bought you a phone as a going away present?
JCram Yes a pay as you go one for my sixteenth birthday I remember. Yes, so that was just their way of keeping in touch.
JC And everybody has one, virtually everybody. And did you mostly use the phone or texting facilities?
JCram During the day probably texting, during the evening phoning.
JC Sitting in lectures texting friends?
JCram Well, in first year and second year, we didn't get away with it in third year and forth year so much because it's much smaller classes. Maybe in the bigger classes, yes.
JC Have any of the other University's sort of back up services ever been useful to you? You've spoken already of the advising system working well for you. We also have the Chaplaincy, Counselling, Student Health.
JCram Student Health was brilliant. I had a really good doctor there, Dr Hamilton. She was excellent. She would give you advice and she was very open and everything. She was really good for me. The Chaplaincy, I went to a couple of things, what was it I went to. Yes, the Fair Trading, I'm into organic foods so I went to a few things like that but I didn't really use the service at all other than that.
JC And Counselling, you look far too well adjusted to …
JCram Yes, I'm fine. I know other people that have used it though.
JC Had a good result?
JCram They have had a good result but they felt they had to wait quite a long time for appointments which wasn't always good because sometimes they needed help there and then and they weren't able to get it. But other than that I'm sure it was fine.
JC Staying on the general level, I'm thinking of yourself and your student friends, I mean you've been here four years now, have you observed any sort of striking change?
JCram I think I've changed a lot, in fact a huge amount. When I look back on first year I kind of laugh and think about the way I was back then. Everything about me has changed but I felt it was quite obvious when it was happening to me. I feel the last year especially has been such a turnaround for me. But yes I don't know I mean I've kind of stayed with quite the same group I had in first year. We've kind of all stayed quite close. And people have changed definitely but I expected that to happen so it wasn't too much of a shock.
JC When you say you stayed with the same largish group of friends, I mean what has been the common denominator of that group? Has it been coming from outwith Aberdeen, from Glasgow or has it been because you landed up in halls together?
JCram Yes definitely.
JC That's the social engineering …
JCram Yes exactly. I mean it's quite a small halls Crombie Johnston and its very social. You know you do end up being friends with a lot of people and it was good, got on well, met a really nice crowd there.
JC I'm thinking again generally about students, I mean we're always hearing, particularly our student politicians saying you know, student apathy, students are only interested in their work and their jobs and their social life, not in issues, not in local politics, not in national politics, not even in student politics. Do you agree or not?
JCram I think that students could be a lot more interested. I think it's difficult because with something like that I think it needs to be really handed on a plate to them before they get involved. You know because a lot of students aren't all that motivated towards that kind of thing and I know I myself it's very difficult to fit a lot of things in. You know even being an active member of the one surf club I found it difficult to do much else around that on top of studying and seeing friends and seeing my partner. But I personally, I would have gotten involved say we'd had maybe a lecture on it that was compulsory that told us how to get involved in it or something. You know, that kind of thing.
JC ? that suggestion before.
JCram Yes, but I mean as I say that is being kind of handed it on a plate before you go on and do it yourself. But I think when it comes to politics a lot of students are sometimes too scared to voice their opinions as well.
JC Really. What would they be afraid of?
JCram I just think some people feel you know if they've got quite a different opinion they just don't want to voice it in case …
JC They fall out with friends?
JCram Yes because it can be quite a sensitive issue sometimes.
JC Right. You had your head down working this year of course but I mean for example the Iraq war must have provoked interest ?
JCram Yes definitely. But you know quite a few of us were shocked because on the news for the students that you get when it pops up and you go onto email that there was advice for students during international tension and it said basically don't talk about it. And we all were actually quite upset about that because we thought well that's quite strange we thought coming to university was all about kind of freedom of speech, say what you want to say, but that kind of made us just you know because they were saying beware you might offend people we've got a wide multi-cultural university going on. But still I don't think that was the right attitude to take I think we should have been encouraged to go along to even a student political route? that we could go and talk about it with. Because I know for one, my partner, even he was really frustrated during that, he was really kind of felt quite angry about it all and couldn't speak to anyone because he was so aware that you don't want to offend anyone after reading that.
JC Yes, very interesting. I know exactly the message you mean now. I can see that it was very well meant but very heavy handed ? Did you have any overseas friends as a matter of interest?
JCram Yes, various. In first year more so because people came over for a term here and there from different countries. I've got a friend from Serbia who was part of my focus group. He's interesting.
JC What with Serbian Christian or Muslim background?
JCram Christian.
JC Have you in fact met any people from Africa or the Middle East?
JCram I have here and there but I can't think of anyone that sticks out that I kind of socialised in particular with but there have been various people. I know a few South Americans from the Surf Club but other than that I don't really think so. But we were saying there's a lot of clubs like Hispanic Club that kind of thing and they do tend to stick together an awful lot. Like in Halls, a lot of the Greek people, it's very difficult to become friends with them because they're a very tight knit group. But they're lovely when you speak to them, it's just very difficult to become close friends because they tend to …
JC Yes, that's always been observed I think about strong groups of oversees students, you know Chinese stick together and the Africans stick together.
JCram Yes, definitely.
JC And the Muslims stick together and so on.
JCram But I mean you can understand I suppose if the Brits were to go away they would probably do the same as well wouldn't they.
JC Yes. OK, any other area of your university experience which we haven't covered that you'd like to talk about?
JCram I'm not sure. Thinking more along the lines of, I don't know, time for essays and things like that, I don't know, work wise.
JC Has the work seemed pressuring throughout or have you, I mean you've worked hard you've told me but have you felt very pressured or have you felt that it was a case of pacing yourself and it was OK?
JCram I felt pressured but only from my point of view. I mean it was always reasonable time limits we were given
JC Yes, you weren't hounded.
JCram Yes exactly. As long as you were organised it was fine it was just your own nerves that got to you.
JC I suppose what one big topic we haven't talked about, we haven't for example spoken about religion except in passing and I take it that didn't really impinge much on your life.
JCram Well I'm actually Jewish. I came up here Jewish.
JC Are you, gosh. Well was that a problem?
JCram I'm not a very religious person.
JC You're not orthodox?
JCram No but …
JC So food isn't a problem?
JCram Not at all. I mean that's the thing I don't follow any of the rules or anything like that.
JC For Orthodox Jews it is very difficult I know because the sources of supply are very few.
JCram Exactly. But I mean people were fine. I'm always quite open about it because it comes up in conversation and no-one's every really said anything about it.
JC And would you go to a synagogue if there was one?
JCram I'm not sure about that.
JC I believe there isn't one in Aberdeen.
JCram I know when I first came up there wasn't. I think there is a Jewish club now where Jewish people can go and meet and have a service together as far as I know. But when I came up there wasn't but I'm not too sure whether I would do that or not because I'm quite aware of segregating myself through that kind of thing. I don't really like that idea. I've got my community back home and I kind of just …
JC Sure, do you feel yourself culturally Jewish, I mean is it important to you?
JCram I don't know. Because I'm not very religious I'm not sure but then most of my friends back home, not necessarily my friends but family friends, friends of Mum and Dad come from a very Jewish community and you know we do a lot of things together. I mean there's a lot of bar mitzvahs and it's all the same kind of people that are going to them. But I don't know. I mean possibly, possibly more so than I actually am aware of I think. I think maybe when I'm taken away from it it hits me more.
JC Yes, it's a sort of generational thing for you then. The older generation are keen and the younger generation are very laid back about it.
JCram Yes, exactly.
JC Very interesting, yes. And the other thing I suppose you know the stereo type of students is that they're all lying about getting drunk and drugs are rife on campus and everybody's terribly promiscuous, are any of those things true in your experience?
JCram I think the drinking aspect definitely for the first few years of uni can be a bit heavy going. I know I drank a lot in first year.
JC Do you agree that women are nearly as bad as, you know I'm using a pejorative term, as bad as men in this respect?
JCram You mean drinking the same amount?
JC Yes.
JCram Probably yes. I think in first year everyone goes a bit crazy because it's all a bit exciting, you're away from home.
JC Drugs, no?
JCram Well in my first year I wasn't aware of it but then kind of coming into second year I noticed there were a lot more people than I ever thought were taking drugs I have to say. And that was quite frightening for me because I've always been quite anti-drugs.
JC How did you know they were? By their behaviour or …
JCram I don't even know, I just kind of started realising and finding out and people just started being much more open. But I think also a lot of people just started doing it for some bizarre reason. I found that really difficult actually at that time because I just couldn't understand that mentality. I mean I understood people wanting to have a drink but I don't know I found that really difficult. But then, I don't know, a lot of people just said to me oh that's just an aspect of student life and some people are going to go through that stage. But I mean nothing ever, I don't think I've ever seen anything too out of control. And people generally do calm down with drinking definitely like I would say third and fourth year is a lot calmer. You wouldn't see people get nearly as drunk as they did in first year.
JC What about the promiscuity, is that widespread or not?
JCram I don't know. I think that's a personality thing. I think some people are, some people aren't. The ones that are promiscuous are the extravert ones and that's the ones you are going to hear about. So I'm not sure. I think that could be a bit of a sweeping generalisation.
JC Yes, I think most of these are, yes. Coming back though to the drugs one, the interesting thing is that in the city itself I think the drugs problem has got a lot worse over the last perhaps five years. It's maybe that students have got caught up in that.
JCram Possibly, possibly. I mean I know a lot of the clubs that students go to there's now a lot more locals go that probably it's the kind of clubs I'm talking about is where they would be taking …
JC The typical night club scene?
JCram Yes. I think it's very difficult because as I say I'm quite anti-drugs but I think there should be a lot more advice about it. Probably the reason I'm anti-drugs is because I'm so scared about them I don't know anything about them. I don't know what to expect if my friend took it or what ever but I think it would do students a lot of good to be more open about the issue and have more information being handed around and things.
JC Yes, I think that perhaps the University's view would be, perhaps wrongly, that most people have gone through the drugs thing at school.
JCram I suppose it depends. I heard of a lot of people at boarding school get into that but I was at a private school and nothing ever, I never knew of anything like that at school. As I say up until second or third year I was completely oblivious to the drug scene, I really didn't know anything about it. But then I always remember at school being visited by the RAF or the Navy, can't remember which one, came and they showed us a drugs video and it's always stuck in my mind. And I think that for me is what made me stay away from things like that. That's why I'm thinking University may be ought to not take that attitude and still … at least the first year students offer it anyway because I think it's quite important.
JC That's fascinating. I may be projecting an attitude to the University which isn't true, remember I'm a retired member of staff.
JCram But I mean not that I don't think there's anything as far as I'm aware too out of control but I do think that … I think it's always useful to have a refresher in these things because fears sort of dim with time, so people sort of think, I'll be fine and you know but maybe if they're shown a horrific video of things they might change their mind.
JC OK, well all very encouraging and do you think your university degree is going to be a good platform for what you do next?
JCram I'm glad I chose what I did because I certainly feel that it might help me with various things and might get me more of a foot in the door. I've noticed a lot more people kind of open their ears when I say what I got so … but no, yes, I'm glad I've got it. What I've done at university has helped, it sounds quite strange, but the research aspects of Sociology which I really enjoyed I feel that it's enabled me to research anything really. Whether it's the same type of research or not I just feel a lot more able to go and look at something I don't know anything about and find out about it. So yes, it's definitely given me skills that I can use.
JC You can use them to find a good job
JCram Well, I think I could quite easily say that it's been a useful degree because I can see why in so many respects it's helped me. So yes, definitely.
JC Super. Well it's been very nice to talk to you.
JCram Thank you, me as well.
JC Thank you very much for coming.
JCram Thank you.
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