| Description | Interview with Dr Ian Brown recorded on 29 June 2002 by Jennifer Carter.
Transcript of Interview :
JC So 1942 was an interesting year to come up to university, Dr Brown?
IB I found it very interesting.
JC When did you actually start? You graduated in '42, so the medical course was about how long?
IB About '36 I suppose.
JC So at that time you came up straight from school.
IB I was at Robert Gordon's College. I had an uncle, The Reverend Dr Duncan of Auchterless, who had been chairman of the Aberdeenshire Educational Committee for many years, and was given a doctorate in recognition of his work in that connection. He it was who urged me to take up medical studies. He interviewed my school master, who was headmaster at Robert Gordon's College, in the hope that I might study Greek. It turned out to be impractical, but I enjoyed my time. I enjoyed Latin and the other subjects I was studying, and I managed to get the necessary examinations, and a Carnegie Grant and so forth, and so I was able start medicine.
JC In those days I think it was typical, was it not, to have medicine in the family, but that was so for you?
IB Not really. Not in my immediate family, but my uncle, that is to say my mother's sister's husband, was in general practice at Bonnybridge, in Scotland. Dr John Young. He influenced me to take up medicine and I had cousins. One cousin Mr James Galloway, was a neuro-surgeon at the Victoria & Stobhill in Glasgow. He too encouraged me.
JC And in those days was it difficult to get into medicine?
IB Not nearly so difficult as it is today. The selection process wasn't so good, it was largely based on academic ability. I believe that is not enough. That people should be assessed on personal grounds, not solely on academic ability.
JC So roughly half-way through your course World War II broke out, in 1939. How did that effect you as a student? You were already established in your course of study. You were well on the way to a professional qualification, and I presume as a student in any case, you would have been exempt war service.
IB Certainly as a student I was exempt. The first impact it had on me was that I got involved in the Civil Defence activities. I still have a certificate from the Provost of Aberdeen, thanking me for Civil Defence work. The next thing that happened to me, prior to qualification was that I was appointed to a clinical assistant post at the Aberdeen Royal Mental Hospital, now the Royal Cornhill Hospital. This was a sought after opening, because it gave free board and lodging in return for doing practical procedures. Such as lumber puncture, tube feeding, and so forth, and dispensing for more than 1,000 patients, and I got this because my friend Ian Buchan, who had been a pharmacist, was known to have a knowledge of pharmacology, and I had succeeded in the Strachan Bursary in Medicine & Theraputics, and because of these factors we got this resident post at the Aberdeen Royal Mental Hospital.
JC You said that you were involved in Civil Defence work. What did that involve?
IB Not a lot. I think we did some fire-watching and that sort of thing, but it was minimal really. Not nearly as great as I had to do later on. I was a hospital group officer with the Civil Defence for the Eastbourne hospitals, which took a lot of time, but up in Aberdeen it involved very little.
JC We will come back to more details of the war in Aberdeen, but just to get the picture, chronologically. You graduated in 1942, and then you went off to Eastbourne then, did you?
IB No. Immediately after graduation I was appointed to a house-physician post at Woodend Hospital, and some of the colleagues I still keep in touch with. I was there for 6 months. I was house-physician with Dr A.G. Anderson. I found it very interesting. Most of the patients were service patients from the Orkneys and Shetland, who came regularly by ship once a week, and they provided a good cross-section of service incapacitates, and I learned a lot there. At the completion of that 6 months period I did a locum at Longside, Mintlaw, in general practice. There I succeeded a man who had strong religious views and he would say to the patients after a visit, "now you must read some parts of Psalms or Proverbs, and so forth", and when the lady of the house asked about treatment for the patient, he would say "I will deal with that matter of lesser importance on my next visit!"
JC Wonderful! I think you must have been a nice change for them, a young and bright and interested doctor. And then when you had done that stage in your career, when did you move down to Eastbourne, where you had the bulk of your career, had you not?
IB Well just after I had completed that, I was called up.
JC That would have been what?
IB That was the beginning of 1943. I did the initial induction training at Leeds, at Becket's Park training centre, for the RAMC. Becket's Park had been a teacher training college and we all went there, a mixed bag of doctors. Some looked older than me, in civilian clothes, and were not very military in their approach to things, but I learnt a lot. Then after that I did a spell at Newcastle Military Hospital at Newcastle. Then a locum with an anti-tank regiment atGolford Range. Then I had an attachment at the Inns of Court regiments doing exercises with scout cars in the north east, and then very soon after that I was sent off to North Africa.
JC So homing in again then in on your Aberdeen student experience, because that is really what we are here to talk about. You'd had about half your student life before the war broke out, and then the second half during the early phases of World War II. Did you find it changed the nature of what you were doing, or the approach of students to work? Or were there practical changes? I suppose food-rationing must have come in, in that period, for example?
IB Well certainly it did change a number of things. One was conscious of the war, of the need for more doctors. We were assured that there would be no lowering of standards, because of the need to produce more doctors. It was pointed out to us repeatedly, that doctors once qualified had to be able to carry out medical work in any parts of the world, for many years later and there would be no question of lowering standards because of the needs of the armed services.
JC So that was an official University policy?
IB It was. My spell as clinical assistant at Aberdeen Royal Mental Hospital was punctuated occasionally by air raids in Aberdeen and we, for example, dispensed paraldehyde, as a sedative for mental patients, which normally had to be given only after a psychiatrist had advised it for the patients, but if the air-raid siren were to go off, the wards nursing staff would be able to administer paraldehyde to the patients who were restless. We groaned when we heard the siren go off, because we knew next morning we would have dispense scores of bochtula paraldehyde.
JC How interesting. Yes. As an undergraduate, before you got your post at the Royal Mental Hospital, I was trying really in a way to see if there was any sense in which one's day to day life as a student was effected with the country being at war? You have implied, I think, that in a sense people became more conscious of the importance of what they were doing. But what about the practicalities? Was there any visible change for you, or was it just like going on being a student until you qualified?
IB I didn't find it particularly an exciting activity, studying. The amount of knowledge required in anatomy, and physiology and materia medica and the rest, was to me formidable. It meant long hours of study and I didn't come from a wealthy family, and life for me seemed somewhat austere.
JC You stayed at home, as a student, did you?
IB I was living at home, and for example, I lived in the Mannofield area, and I would walk from there to Marischal College, rather than spend a penny on a tram fare.
JC On a tram of course, not a bus. Could I ask what was your family's background? What was your father's job?
IB My father was what was called a marine superintendent. That's to say he was concerned with the maintenance of a fleet of trawlers, and he had to arrange for the engineering maintenance of a fleet of trawlers, and generally supervise their management.
JC Sounds like a highly responsible job, but not well paid?
IB Exactly. Not well paid, but fairly responsible. He had been in the Royal Navy in the 1914-18 war.
JC So I picture you then living out at Mannofield and walking to classes to save money. Did it mean also that you had a fairly restricted social life because of lack of money?
IB Yes. It didn't worry me at all, but I had to try and earn more money. I used to work as a postal sorter at Christmas time for 7 days or 10 days or more for up to 18 hours a day. It was hard work, but limited in time. I used work as a grouse beater on the moors in summer term. A healthy job, which I enjoyed.
JC And grouse shooting went on into war time, did it?
IB It did indeed. At least I think so!
JC It was probably part of preserving the countryside.
IB I think so. I am fairly sure it did.
JC And so you took those sort paid activities to help finance your studies.
IB Exactly.
JC Were you on a bursary from the University?
IB Yes. I had a bursary, and I got a place in what was called the Bursary Competition. This was… you know about that ..?
JC Yes, a famous institution.
IB Well I came in about seventh place.
JC Oh, that was pretty good!
IB I think so. It was hard work getting to it, but it was quite a challenge, and I was quite pleased to get there, and that made a difference to the fees I had to pay.
JC Do you remember how much the Bursary was?
IB No, I don't.
JC It was probably of the order, I would guess, of about £100 a year, or something like that.
IB Maybe, but I can't remember the details.
JC So medical classes were held at Marischal, right through your course, or did you move at some stage up to Foresterhill?
IB We started off a Marischal College, having lectures on Anatomy and Physiology. I can remember Danny Low, the professor at the Anatomy School. I can remember Hans Kosterlitz.
JC I knew him well, later, of course.
IB He was an exceptionally capable man, teaching in physiology. I remember Professor Lancelot Hogben he wrote "Mathematics for the Millions", and he invited me to his house for a meal, I remember, because he didn't have meals in household. He had a table laid with food, which the family came and ate from, from time to time during the day. They never had regular meals. They just ate on demand.
JC Was this some kind of theory of nutrition ?
IB Maybe. He was a brilliant man, Lancelot Hogben?
JC And obviously a slightly unusual one!
IB Unusual, yes.
JC Eccentric. How interesting. And was that during war-time that you went to his house, and found this open table?
IB Yes.
JC So that must have been quite striking in days of rationing to find food simply laid out?
IB The fruit was there I remember.
JC So you even had fruit ? In the days when nobody could get a banana or an orange?
IB Maybe. I didn't think about that at the time.
JC About how large was the Medical School? How many students were there?
IB I think there were about 110, perhaps 120, but I may be wrong.
JC So you all knew each other?
IB Well fairly well. We didn't socialise a lot. Comparing notes with other people who went to other universities and university during peace time, most people seemed to have a very busy social life with parties and societies. I did very little of that. I was just working hard to get through. I wanted to improve my lot.
JC Well that's a very strong Scottish tradition isn't it? So you probably wouldn't know whether, as I suspect, the Medical students mixed a lot more with other students.
IB They didn't seem to me to mix much more with other students.
JC That's interesting. And apart from the teachers that you have mentioned of first year, were there striking academics whom you came in contact with?
IB Oh, yes. A number. I can remember very clearly the professor of materia medica, was Professor David Campbell, a Glasgow graduate who was the Dean of the Faculty, I think, for a time. I remember him very well. Professor John Stirling Young, the professor of Pathology. Professor R.S. Aitken, the professor of Medicine, or perhaps you are talking about the pre-clinical years are you?
JC yes. And of course when you weren't into the clinical stage, presumably you were working on the wards alongside practitioners?
IB Yes. I did outpatient work, at the first instance, Woolmanhill. I remember that very well because I must have reached that stage in 1939, because one of the things I do remember happening was this. In September, 1939, I was learning in the outpatient department at Woolmanhill, under the supervision of a man called Neil Hendry, who I think was the surgical or medical registrar, and he told me to listen to the chest of a patient with a stethoscope, which I had never used previously. So as I put my stethoscope to the chest, the air-raid siren went, and what I heard was a wailing noise, which I thought was coming out of the patient's chest! That made a big impression on me for the moment!
JC I am sure it did! I wonder what you thought was wrong with the poor patient! That is a lovely story. Of the staff you have spoken of, how many of them were on fairly friendly terms with students? You mentioned that Hogben asked you to his home. Was that normal, or was that fairly unusual?
IB Relatively unusual, I would say. I was allocated a personal supervisor, if you would like to call it that, who was the Radiologist, a Dr Blewitt. He did invite me to his home. He was given responsibility of looking after a small group of students. Dr A.G. Anderson, the physician, he invited me to his home. I remember that well because, well this was later, after I qualified. I was then house physician at Woodend, and it happened then that one of my fellow graduates developed signs of severe headache and high temperature. He lived in the next room to me at Woodend, so I got his chief, Dr Duthie a chest physician, to see him. Duthie said, "Listen to his chest" as he would, and as we had both been to A.G. Anderson for dinner the previous night, he said, "A.G. has definitely given you both too much to drink, you will be alright". Ross didn't get any better within the next few hours. I called upon Dr A.G. Anderson, who examined him, and diagnosed meningitis. He was sent to the City Hospital, given the new sulphur drug, M &B and made a good recovery. He is now a retired pathologist living in the south of England.
JC Gosh, well he was a lucky young man, wasn't he? Because I am told as a lay person that you have to diagnose meningitis pretty quickly. Lucky young man. Were relations between students and the people who were teaching you, the staff who were teaching you, were they relatively formal?
IB I think so. Things have changed a lot in the past 50 years. I do notice that. Relations were much more formal than they are today, but that applies throughout. For many years I was accustomed to being addressed as Dr Brown in the hospitals, and so forth. Nowadays, particularly with the advent of Social Services, it is customary to address people by their Christian name, and I would have been surprised by going to a ward and the Sister had said "Good morning Ian, how are you today?" But that's how things are.
JC But that is a very recent change, last sort of 10 years.
IB Fairly recent. Yes. 5 - 10 years. Exactly.
JC So when you were a student, I mean ..
IB More formal.
JC Much more formal and I presume that you always spoke to the staff as Professor Hogben, or whatever.
IB Exactly, I wouldn't have dreamt of saying otherwise.
IB And did they call you Ian, or did they call you Mr. Brown? Or did they just call you Brown?
IB Brown!
JC Surnames only.
IB Indeed, it was a way of addressing people that I continued for 30 or 40 years. When I met fellow consultants in Eastbourne, they used to call me Brown and I used to call them Smith or Jones, or whatever.
JC Well that again is a generational thing, isn't it? I mean it was exactly the same with my father. He would always have spoken like that. But I wondered whether there was any difference in the tone of the relationships between students and staff, as you became more senior as students, because it is a long course medicine.
IB I never noticed any difference.
JC Some of the same faces would have come back I would have thought, but they have maintained their formality until the bitter end!
IB Well, I am not unduly formal, but I accept it as a normal relationship.
JC Equally, however, in medicine, there are, at any rate nowadays, occasions of great letting down of hair. At sort of hospital parties or Xmas events.
IB This I never saw. Nothing like that.
JC Absolutely nothing like that in your day.
IB I didn't want it anyway.
JC No. Well I was just interested, because you know it is quite difficult to date those sort of changes. Thinking again of the subject of your wartime experience in Aberdeen then. Were there any particular reflections on the way in which the circumstances of the war affected the city and life generally?
IB Not a great deal. After all Aberdeen wasn't in the front line. It is true there were some raids, mostly in the harbour installations, but by and large, if you compare it with the situation in the south of England, which of course I didn't experience at that time, it was relatively of minor impact. No the war, as far as enemy action was concerned, didn't mean much to me in Aberdeen.
JC You didn't see any of the raids?
IB Yes, we used to see the search lights probing the sky, and listened to the odd bomb being dropped. When I was fire-watching, I could see the planes in the sky, but they were few and far between. So it was a minor matter.
JC How exacting were fire-watch duties?
IB Not exacting at all. No. I don't remember much about them, but they weren't exacting.
JC Oh, well, interesting. How many of the staff who were teaching you in fact disappeared to wartime service? Or was that not done at all in Medicine? I simply don't know.
IB No. After all not so many people went off in 39-42. A few joined the Scottish Field General Hospital and indeed in the book, which I have, on the history of the Aberdeen Medico-Chirurgical Society, where one of the chapters is written by Alec Adam, it describes how some of the people went off to the army, but not so many.
JC Because in other departments of the University quite a few staff went to various kinds of war service, not all of it active service, you know, I was just interested to see if it was the same or different in Medicine.
IB It didn't seem to me a big problem. I don't recall it to be so,
JC Interesting. I know it is an awfully long time ago now, but are there any other aspects of your life as a student that you would like to tell us about?
IB No. Looking back on it, it was a fairly hard slog, to be honest. I was looking forward to qualifying and bettering myself. I wouldn't say I was looking forward to go into the army, but I thought that once I had finished my education I would be able to find a broader outlook, and find life more interesting. And that's indeed what happened!
JC Well that has been an extremely good talk . Is there anything else you would like to put on the record?
IB Well I could talk of wartime experiences, but you don't want that do you?
JC Not especially, but if there is any thing particularly interesting that you would like to tell me, please do.
IB Well what I would like to do, is to let you have my memoirs.
JC Your memoirs, I would love that.
IB It is not well written, but it gives an account of my life in the army, and what happened to me after that. You don't want to hear that now.
JC Well I look forward to receiving a copy. Thank you very much for that interview, it has told me a lot of very interesting things.
IB Not at all.
JC Thank you.
End of Interview |