| Description | Interview with Mrs. Nazreen Fletcher, who has just graduated with a degree in History and International Relations, recorded on 3 July 2002 by Jennifer Carter.
Transcript of Interview :
JC Well it is very nice of you to come along Nazreen, the day after you have walked across the platform to graduate at the Mitchell, and I would be very interested to know about your decision to start studying at Aberdeen, because you told me that you came to live here simply because your husband had a job in Aberdeen.
NF Yes, that's right.
JC Then you waited 'till the children grew up? Was that it?
NF Yes, when my daughter started school she was five, I thought I'm free from about 8 o'clock to about 3 o'clock, I can come to lectures between that time, and I was lucky to get lectures within that time frame. So that is about my main reason for starting then.
JC You waited until your girl was old enough. She is the younger of the two. You have got two children I gather?
NF Yes she is. Adam is now 14 years old.
JC So why choose to study? Many people in your position would perhaps have gone out and got a job of some kind, or done something different, but you have always wanted to take a degree, did you?
NF Yes. When, where I lived in Trinidad, my GCE marks were not adequate to go to university in the West Indies, so I just went out and got a job. A few years later I met my husband and we got married, then he had to come back to the UK to work, so I never thought I would have had the opportunity to go into further education. I never really thought about it to be honest.
JC What brought it to your attention then?
NF Well it is really strange. One of the things I noticed, well I think I had my first child then, and I went to the Bon-Accord Centre, it had just opened and in the food court there were some graduates, they were having lunch, and I suddenly felt envious. I thought I had that opportunity to go to university, and never thought much more of it. A friend of mine, or should I say an acquaintance, I vaguely mentioned something to her once, and she said you could do it. You could go back. I'm a mature student, and that sort of planted the seed into my head. Of course my younger child was still about 2 at the time, and I thought I could never have that opportunity, but then I thought further and got some literature and you know, found out a bit more, and I thought, you know when she starts school, I could go back. I had to do the Access course for a year. Which is the entrance course for entering the university, so I did that and passed it and got the opportunity after that. And I took it.
JC Was the University friendly in its reception for you. I mean did you get the information you wanted easily, and no problems?
NF Very, very much so. It was just absolutely - its was just there for any one who was interested, and I am surprised that more mature people don't take the opportunity. Mind you it is a daunting prospect. Five years - well five years for me, having to take the Access course. I just thought "what a marvellous opportunity", and I thought if I didn't do it now I would miss something, and I would regret it for ever. Even if I didn't go very far with the Access course, or never went into university, at least I have tried.
JC The Access course classes were taken in the evening, were they? Or were they daytime?
NF No, mine were daytime. I actually would have done it a year earlier but my daughter, who was 4½ at the time, in the Scottish system could have gone to school early at 4½, but her teacher recommend that she stay on at nursery for another year, because she was very shy. So I had to defer a year, and just waited 'till she was at school. It was the best thing I ever did for her.
JC It enabled her to start school on a better footing.
NF Exactly. She was the oldest in the class, but that was quite an advantage for her socially. Academically I think she would have been okay, but socially, she was very shy.
JC It is difficult for kids when they are shy, isn't it? A difficult problem to overcome when you're are little.
NF The other thing I had to remember was, that I spoke to a lot of teachers about it and they always said if she goes another year at nursery it will never do her any harm, but I was totally looking way ahead, when she is at the academy. If she went to school at 4½ she would be right in her exams at 15, and she would be still very young, so that added year was a bonus for her right through her schooling.
JC Well that sounds very sensible. So which modules did you take for Access.? You have to do two or three as it were?
NF You have to do two in the first half and two in the second half. So the first half I did Politics, Economics and .. I can't remember at the moment! But it was three subjects in one. You did 4 weeks of each. So that was one module. The other one was History. Then in the second half I did Geography and English.
JC And what was the teaching like in the Access course? I don't know if it is done by regular teachers in the University or by students?
NF Yes. It is done at University level by the University lecturers and it is basically training you for University. In a way that is much better than school. You are at the University. You are being judged by the University system. You have university lecturers. My first tutorial at the University was not as strange as it would be for students coming from school.
JC And particularly someone who had a gap since schooling.
NF Well it was 20 years actually, so ..
JC 20 years - gosh!
NF Yes
JC One wouldn't think that looking at you!
NF Thank you! Well it was interesting, well one that was good for my ego, when I came and one of the students said to me, she was a mature student, "You look like you are nineteen", and I thought "Woo, nice to hear!"
JC What about the financial side. What does it cost to the Access course? Is it fairly reasonably priced?
NF It is means tested of course so,
JC Oh is it! I did not know that. That is helpful.
NF In my case I had to pay, I think it was about just under £500 pounds.
JC That's not bad for a year,
NF No - it isn't actually, when you think about it. I think I am remembering correctly, just under £500 pounds, but there are people who, according to their financial situation, did not have to pay.
JC Got it for free.
NF Yes. There is another way you can come in to university, and you can do a year through the college. And I think that you don't pay anything at all. But I can't actually tell you very much more.
JC What when you became a regular student, what were the financial implications there.
NF Ah, funnily that was the time the Labour government got into power, and they decided that the fees are going to means tested, and students whose parents, or in my case, my husband, who were able to pay the £1000 tuition fee, had to pay it. So my first and second year I paid £1000 each. The third year the Scottish Parliament came into existence and they decided that Scottish students do not have to the tuition fee. So my third and fourth year I did not have to pay.
JC Will you have to pay those fees back, the £2000, for those two years, later? Is that the idea? Or do you not have to ever pay it back?
NF Do you mean my third and fourth year?
JC Yes
NF No, no. They scrapped it. They made it back to what it was originally. You do not pay it all.
JC So that's not so bad then. So you got your four years at an average cost of £500 each year !
NF Yes, that's right. So it is quite reasonable. Quite cheap compared to say some other places like America, where it is horrendously expensive.
JC Yes, indeed. I know some of our young people sometimes think, "I'll go and do a degree in America" and then they look at the prices and change their minds!
NF. In Britain a lot of people complain, but it's so very….. I shouldn't say easy, but easier financially for people to come to University than it is in other countries, and I grasped that opportunity.
JC Well done.
NF Yes and I hope I can have the opportunity to give something back, because I do believe it costs money to send people to university, and try and do something back for them.
JC Well we can come round to that at the end of what you are going to do with your degree. What about travelling? You live at Inverurie, I think you said? How did you get to and fro? Did you drive or come by bus, or ?
NF I drove. I think if I had to come by bus it would have been a hindrance, because I had to . My University life had to fit in with my family, and if I had to take the buses, it could have been a bit difficult, because sometimes I would just make it back in time to collect my daughter from school. I had to rely on friends, but not very much. I was lucky in that ..
JC It all worked out smoothly. You found somewhere to park when you came here!
NF Well the students car park, but that is a horrendous place to park.
JC It is always full, so I'm told!
NF It is very, very. The thing is, it is always full and sometimes you might come into the car park, you could find a place quite easily, but getting out!
JC It could be very difficult, as everybody is parked all higgity-piggity.
NF And I would think, maybe it is because of my maturity, I am not sure, but I think "Gosh, these are going to be the people who are going to be running the world in the future"
JC And they can't park their cars properly
NF And they can't do the simplest thing, but it is the lack of consideration, that is the hardest bit to understand. How inconsiderate some of them were. Sorry, I am being critical, but…
JC No, but very interesting. Yes, because the student car park is not laid out properly, is it just in effect a piece of ground, no lines on the ground or anything.
NF It is not tarred or anything.
JC No, no. That is the area where eventually the university hopes to extend the Library, that's why nothing has ever been done to make it into a proper car park.
NF But it is maddening. Because where are students going to park?
JC Yes, indeed! I always thought, if I had a few millions, I would build a multi-storey garage here and let out spaces!
NF Well, that's right. It's really badly needed, and even on St. Machar Drive, where we were able to park, at one time, I notice it happened this year, they have put down the yellow lines.
JC Yes, I have seen that too.
NF And I am wondering where are students supposed to park? I mean it was bad enough and it is getting worse, and if as you said, they are going to be extending the Library, I can't understand the logic behind it.
JC And of course, mature students particularly often do depend on private transport, don't they?
NF That's right, and especially if you live so far out of Aberdeen, you need to use your car.
JC So given that you were based in Inverurie and driving in and out, and coping with your family, I presume that meant that you didn't have much opportunity to integrate into student life socially, even if you had wanted to do so?
NF That's right. I think that is something that I missed very much, because I would finish my lectures, probably some times I may have a chance to go to the Library, may not, but I just have to rush back for the kids. Although, I was lucky in some sense in that my husband works shifts, and if he was there you know, I didn't have a problem. He could collect the kids, or…
JC So you could stay on and get books from the Library, and that sort of thing?
NF Yes, but I always found after a lecture, and after the drive in, then the lectures, I was always tired. It was probably my age! But I always felt very tired.
JC Well it is an effort, with both drive and the listening to a lecturer, and it needs concentration doesn't it?
NF That's right. And going into the Library made me even more tired, because it re-circulated air, and it sort of gave you a fuzzy head. I like fresh air you see.
JC Yes. Right. Apart from the problem of the re-circulated air, did you find the Library adequate to your needs? I mean, was it a good Library from your point of view as a student?
NF Yes. I found it adequate. Very good.
JC And computing facilities, were they okay?
NF The University as a whole, yes, it was fine. Although I did eventually get my own computer at home, because especially when it comes to essay time, it was just near impossible to get onto the computers. And of course, it didn't fit in with my times.
JC You were probably writing your essays in the middle of the night after the children had gone to bed were you?
NF Well, something like that! Or I fitted it in when I can. So it didn't work with not having my own machine. Yes, I needed my own machine.
JC Oh well, it is nice that you have got that now to carry on with whatever you do.
NF That's right, and you know, and with having family you were always wanting to get one, and it was a good opportunity to get one then.
JC And if you keep up contacts with friends abroad, Email is a very cheap way of doing it, isn't it?
NF Yes, that's right.
JC What about the other things, the University offers to support students. I mean there is a network of so-called student support, counsellors, advisers, student health, chaplain, there is all sorts of things. Did you ever make use of any of that network?
NF I used the counselling service.
JC Was that useful?
NF Yes, but it wasn't for my problem. I have suffered from the birth of my child with depression, post-natal depression, after Sarah, and then I had a fairly even time, a break, but when I started a year after my Access, I just sort of went down-hill. It was like at the build up of exams, and then in summer holidays I just, I don't know, my emotions went flat. I couldn't, can't explain it. I have had sort of various therapies. I had anti-depressants and I still do not understand it. And it happened at the end of my second year again, and it was sort of like a pattern, although I had a gap year, where I was fine, and after my first year, but then I was on anti-depressants. So I…
JC Sounds almost like a tiredness at the end of the year, doesn't it?
NF Yes, but it was also expectation. I thought if I didn't do well enough…
JC So you were putting a lot of pressure on yourself?
NF Yes I have since and I am at the moment doing psychotherapy, and I find that very helpful.
JC And was that through the University health service, or …
NF Oh no, no. Through the NHS. But I did use the Counselling Service for that.
JC But you didn't find it terrible helpful?
NF No, because I think they were dealing with student's anxiety with studying. Although mine was related to studying, mine was at a deeper level, and I needed more help than they were able to give. So it is good that it is there. It is very limited though, and they couldn't have given me the help, but the fact that it was a step forward, or it was a stepping stone to something else, and apart from that I didn't use much of the services.
JC Did you have an adviser of studies?
NF I did, but I never went ..
JC Never had much contact ?
NF No, I never found I needed that.
JC I wonder why some people just sail through university without needing this help? It is interesting to know when people do use it, whether they find it helpful or not ?
NF I am not really .. Can I tell you why I didn't use it? I thought it wouldn't have helped me.
JC Your decision. Jolly good. Turning now to the academic side, you chose History and International Relations. In first year you probably also did Politics, did you ? Or what was your subject?
NF No, it wasn't. In first year I did IR and History. It was the modules I continued all through. The first year I was part-time, because if you remember I said that after my Access course I had my depression, and I almost didn't continue.
JC So you just did 2 courses, rather than all three.
NF Yes, I went part-time, but, we were earlier talking about advice, and I wasn't given the best advice.
JC Pity.
NF I don't blame the adviser, it was his first time, and he probably didn't know very much about it either, but when I wanted to go full-time the second year, I went from part-time to full-time, plus I had to make up the subjects I had missed in first year. So my second year was very heavy, and that is probably why I ended up with this huge workload.
JC What was the subject you picked up in second year then, that you hadn't done in first? Was it Politics or something else?
NF Well I decided to do something else. I did two first year courses of French, and I thought it is first, it is basic French,..
JC Beginners course..
NF Yes, but it took up a lot of my time.
JC A language is always hard work.
NF It is very hard work, and because you were starting from scratch, you had to learn the basics, and it did take quite a lot of my time, and because the IR subjects were very difficult as well. First year was fairly basic, but the second year was a huge jump, and a lot of students found it a bit difficult. Personally I was learning this new language, and I did find it really difficult. So I was doing a new language, the second year courses were difficult, plus I was doing an extra subject. So I went from part-time to full-time. So it was horrendous, I have to confess.
JC Pretty bad.
NF Yes.
JC But you managed to pass the French?
NF I barely passed, but just scraped through. That was the first half. The second half I thought I would do computing. It is very... everyone said it was very easy, but that year they changed format!
JC Oh dear! You do seem to have had quite bad luck.
NF Yes. Well I felt I was a glutton for punishment, really! But I did fail the Computing course and I had to resit it, and I did pass then. But second year was very challenging. Absolutely challenging.
JC Not good, not good.
NF No, but looking back after 4 years, I felt I'd done. I did it. I didn't give up.
JC So once you were in Junior Honours it was easy!
NF No! It wasn't. It was not easy, and I have to confess, this to you, that I only got a 2.ii, and I was aiming for a 2.i, and that was putting a lot of pressure on myself, thinking I am going to do better next time. I was never able to make that jump from 2.ii to 2.i.
JC Well these things are always a little bit odd, but you enjoyed the Honours courses, did you? The History and the IR ?
NF I did, although Honours year was just as hard as second year. I found it very, very hard.
JC What did you specialise in History? What courses did you take?
NF I did American History with Rosemary Tyzack. In IR I did .. it was just another module, but in IR in Honours year there were only 3 credit courses, you had to do two three credit courses, and you think whether a three credit courses were easier, but the workload was as difficult, was a heavy. So I did The UN in a Changing World, and The Environment in International Relations.
JC That sounds interesting.
NF They are. I was always found the UN rather fascinating organisation, and have always wanted to study it. And Environment I always found very fascinating as well.
JC. Good. Who is in charge of that course, the Environmental one?
NF It is Gabriela Kutting. She is one of the two women in IR, and it is just a fascinating course. I had done environmental subjects in IR in third year, Globalisation, which in a way part of the Globalisation course in third year covered the environment, but in fourth year we did just totally on the environment. It was just very, very interesting. Just things I find fascinating, and still do.
JC What did you do for your fourth year subject in History? or subjects?
NF In History it was The American Revolution again, with Rosemary. I did my dissertation in IR, so I had to do in History, Historical Problems. I hope I haven't made that. I hope I have been inconsistent?
JC No, I get the general picture. Well it all sounds like very hard work.
NF It was!
JC I am glad you enjoyed it in the end, in spite of your problems.
NF Yes, I think, looking back the problem wasn't the family or the travelling, it was my anxiety attack, and my depression.
JC The fact that you were putting so much pressure on yourself, as it were.
NF Yes. That was the biggest thing. You know, looking back, you know you can see… you know you are not seeing things while you are facing the problems, but when step out of it, or as time passes, you look back and can reflect on what you have done. And like you said, I am doing therapy now, and that has helped me to understand the pressure I was putting on myself.
JC And you husband was supportive in your endeavours?
NF Very, very, very much.
JC Is he a graduate engineer, or is he trained on the job?
NF Yes he did. He did go to college, but he joined Bristow when he was 17, straight after school. But he has done various exams. Everytime he has to work as a licence engineer on a helicopter, he has to pass an exam, oral and written, to be a licence engineer and have his work you know, accepted.
JC Yes, I understand, and very proper too, so we don't fall out of the sky.
NF It's a very, very strict regime, and the CAA, the Civil Aviation Authorities, have got high standards. It is one of the highest in the world.
JC Well very proper I am glad to hear.
NF It is, yes. It is a multi-million pound industry in the UK, so you know they have to have strict rules.
JC So when he retires he will be able to come to university as a mature student!
NF That would be nice to come and do part-time, but I don't think he is prepared to do studying..
JC That's asking a lot when you are doing the job which involves exams itself isn't it?
NF Well that's right.
JC Good. So now you have achieved your ambition of a degree, what is your thinking for the future? Will you make some particular use of it? You spoke of wanting to give things back to the community as it were. Along what lines were you thinking?
NF To be honest, now that you have asked me, it really seems abstract, because I haven't got anything in mind, but I am a firm believer of putting back into the community, and I have done voluntary work, you know, in the past. But, I mean if an opportunity comes up with doing something voluntarily, I will quite happily do it.
JC Have you, incidentally, talked to our Careers Service?
NF I have, and I would like to.…
JC Have they got any helpful input?
NF It is rather not the most helpful a place. It points you in the right direction, but sometimes I feel, that when you have got a 2.ii, there are tons, and people are not very interested in.…
JC That should not be so, because it is after all an Honours degree.
NF It is, but I think there are more people go to university now.
JC Oh yes, almost 50% of the population.
NF Exactly, and clear enough they have to have certain standards, because they can't give every graduate a job, so I suppose they have to have limits, but it is really hard, and I am trying, and am sure something will come up. I have to be positive.
JC That is absolutely right, and you have achieved an enormous amount in getting the degree against such difficult circumstances.
NF I have to admit that the reason why I feel very negative is that the University and, I am not sure, in your time, when you were at university if it was as competitive, but today it is so competitive, and when you are a mature student and you have children and you are restricted, you cannot travel, you have to stay in this particular area, and just having a 2.ii, you become aware of the limitations of the jobs market.
JC I understand.
NF I see the younger students, and they are so dynamic, and they are young, and they can go anywhere, and it kind of dims your confidence. It is in the mind a little bit.
JC I understand that, but as I say from my point of view, it seems to me that you have achieved an enormous amount in getting through to your degree result, against such difficulties.
NF There are quite a lot of mature students who face difficulties, like I have. I am going to repeat this. My difficulty was my anxiety and my depression, but then it's not something I can actually put on a CV. I have to be very careful, and not put that on a CV, because once that is seen, you know, I can forget about ever having a job.
JC Dear oh, dear. Well that's not a very happy note to end on. Are there other things you think we should have talked about ?
JC Okay, I was just asking you, when the tape ended, whether there were other things you would like to talk about before we signed off, and you said you would like to speak a little bit about your experience as a foreign student. So do please launch into that.
NF Well, having said that, I am not the average foreign student either. I have lived here, I am a naturalised British Citizen, and I do feel British. I actually feel more British than I do Trinidadian.
JC Trinidad is a very Anglicised part of the Caribbean, isn't it?
NF Yes, and no! The Caribbean is an ex-British colony, but the Trinidad I was brought up in looked to America for culture, as opposed to Britain, although we do have the British history, and even now, after being away from Trinidad for the last 16 years, I think the country I knew does not exist anymore. It changed, and I didn't change with it. I changed with Britain. It's just recently I have realised what the British students take for granted. I had to learn about your culture. I like to think that I assimilated very well into Britain, but there are lots of things I had to learn, and do you know when I noticed it, when I was doing an English course. There were some things that the lecturer said to me when I had a chat with him, and I thought I never even thought of that. I can't remember the particular incident, but I had never really read British literature.
JC I see. Mind you I think in that respect, you are no different from most of the young students today, who don't read anything.
NF And I realised that there a lot of things I had to learn. You think you take it for granted, but there were lost of things I had to learn, and to fit in. And this is as a student, and as a person. So my experience as a foreign/national student, was maybe different to the average British student or to the average foreign student.
JC Did you meet any unfriendliness or discrimination at all?
NF At the University absolutely none. None whatsoever. I talk about the academic aspect of the university but one of the most interesting, and I feel that it is, no one ever actually thinks about it, especially the younger students do not, is the experience of being at university. At being at one of the oldest Universities in the world. The experience in an academic place of learning. The whole experience. The University I see it as a little town, or little, mini city outside everyday life.
JC What used to be called an "ivory tower", but we have stopped saying that now, because it sounds it is detached from reality.
NF No it is not. I don't think it is anymore. It is accessible to most people, but it is still a different world. The people when they are here they think differently, and I am very much more aware of it, because most of the students are living on campus, so they are living this life. But I am going out of campus and I am meeting people who are not of the University. And that is a wonderful experience. The whole University experience is fascinating, and you can see the foreign students mixing with the national students, and that is very heart warming. My friends are of all nationals, English, Scottish, foreign. The other thing too I found very interesting, as a mature student, and I don't know if it is my personality, probably blowing my own trumpet here, but my acquaintances were from the youngest to the oldest. Although I didn't have much of a rapport with the younger ones.
JC Did they lean on you at all for advice? That sometimes happens to mature students.
NF They didn't. But I do have a friend, an older friend, who found that they did. But no they didn't. The whole experience of being a mature student and being at university was fascinating, and that is something.
JC And some of your fellow mature students will remain friends, do you think?
NF Well at least one. Yes. The whole University experience has been most fascinating.
JC That's good. I am very pleased to hear that. Well thank you very much indeed. It is been very interesting talking to you and I am grateful for your time.
NF I hope I have covered lots.
JC From some unusual angles, I must say, but that is always good. Thank you very much.
NF Thank you.
End of Interview
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